4 ms·

It's funny how when talking about Israël's wrongdoings, everything is just "allegedly". Facts already confirms genocide, but hey, they don't want to land in hot

by jeanlou 9mo ago

It's funny how when talking about Israël's wrongdoings, everything is just "allegedly". Facts already confirms genocide, but hey, they don't want to land in hot water.

cbeach 9mo ago
[flagged]
- chakintosh 9mo ago
  > The Hamas Charter explicitly called for the “annihilation” of the Jewish state. See, this is what grinds my effing gears. On one hand you have a party "calling" for the "annihilation" of Israel. On the other hand, you have a part who is calling for the annihilation of palestinians AND they are ACTIVELY doing it. But no, you have to draw an equivalence somehow ...
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - cbeach 9mo ago
    > you have a part who is calling for the annihilation of palestinians No you don't. You have a democratically elected government aiming for the dismantling of Hamas. Hamas is the proscribed terror organisation that is currently leading Gaza. Israel is not calling for the annihilation of Palestinians. The death of Palestinians is entirely the fault of Hamas, whose blatent and attrocious terrorism led Israel with no choice other than to respond with force and defend Israeli citizens from the further attrocities that Hamas have promised.
- cess11 9mo ago
  The Hamas charter indicates that they would accept a two-state solution with 1967 borders. This is not something the state of Israel will accept and is quite blatant in declaring that they would prefer to keep up the genocide.
  - cbeach 9mo ago
    In the 2017 Charter, Hamas states its claims, such as making Jerusalem its capital. However, nowhere in the charter does Hamas state that it will recognise Israel. In fact the document explicitly rejects recognition of Israel and aims for “liberation of all of Palestine” Note also that Hamas never repealed their 1988 charter that called for the annihilation of Israel and contains openly antisemitic language. For a two-state solution to work, Hamas will need to recognise Israel's right to co-exist alongside a Palestine state. And Hamas will need to stop killing innocent Israeli citizens.
    - cess11 9mo ago
      No, they reject zionism: "20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Which is a very reasonable position, since it is a movement predicated on genocidal violence and the crime of apartheid. If the state of Israel were to reform or through revolution become democratic and stop its incessant aggression towards both neighbours and more distant countries, I'm sure Hamas would "recognise Israel". But as I said, this is not an acceptable alternative to the jewish israeli mainstream, nor the zionist movement generally. The palestinians are actually pretty good at not killing "innocent[s]". Much better than the israelis, who have made sport, commerce and dating out of humiliation and terror perpetrated against palestinians.
      - cbeach 9mo ago
        You claim Israel needs to “become democratic” and is an “apartheid” state despite the fact Israel is a functioning pluralist democracy that comprises both Jews and Arabs (unlike Gaza, which expelled Jews and is led by terrorists). By the “Zionist entity,” Hamas are describing Israel. I don’t think you’re ignorant. I think you’re wilfully turning a blind eye to just how hypocritical Hamas are in their criticism of Israel.
- oa335 9mo ago
  Likud government and charter explicitly calls for all land between the river and the sea to be for Jews.
  - cbeach 9mo ago
    That is a territorial/sovereignty claim (i.e., rejecting Palestinian sovereignty/statehood in that space). It is not an explicit call to kill, expel, or physically destroy Palestinians, nor does it literally say “for Jews only.” Under the Genocide Convention, genocide requires specific intent (“intent to destroy, in whole or in part”) a protected group, plus one of the listed genocidal acts (killing; causing serious harm; inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction; preventing births; forcibly transferring children).
    - oa335 9mo ago
      > nor does it literally say “for Jews only.” You are incorrect. The official policy of the current government of Israel is ”the Jewish people have an exclusive right on all the land” between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.” per the coalition agreement the Likud-led government made in 2022: https://archive.is/EYGLU https://archive.is/EYGLU
      - cbeach 9mo ago
        What’s the source for that quote? The article you posted is from a news source I’ve never heard of and doesn’t cite its sources
        oa335 9mo ago
        https://www.axios.com/authors/barak_ravid https://www.axios.com/authors/barak_ravid Here’s the coalition agreement, see article 118: https://main.knesset.gov.il/mk/government/Documents/CA37-RZ.pdf https://main.knesset.gov.il/mk/government/Documents/CA37-RZ.... Here’s another analysis of the coalition agreement that includes that same quote: https://www.ofekcenter.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/what-Israels-37th-governments-guiding-principles-and-coalition-agreements-mean-for-the-West-Bank-Jan-2023.pdf https://www.ofekcenter.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/wha...

by jeanlou 9mo ago

It's funny how when talking about Israël's wrongdoings, everything is just "allegedly". Facts already confirms genocide, but hey, they don't want to land in hot water.

cbeach 9mo ago

[flagged]

chakintosh 9mo ago
> The Hamas Charter explicitly called for the “annihilation” of the Jewish state. See, this is what grinds my effing gears. On one hand you have a party "calling" for the "annihilation" of Israel. On the other hand, you have a part who is calling for the annihilation of palestinians AND they are ACTIVELY doing it. But no, you have to draw an equivalence somehow ...
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- cbeach 9mo ago
  > you have a part who is calling for the annihilation of palestinians No you don't. You have a democratically elected government aiming for the dismantling of Hamas. Hamas is the proscribed terror organisation that is currently leading Gaza. Israel is not calling for the annihilation of Palestinians. The death of Palestinians is entirely the fault of Hamas, whose blatent and attrocious terrorism led Israel with no choice other than to respond with force and defend Israeli citizens from the further attrocities that Hamas have promised.
cess11 9mo ago
The Hamas charter indicates that they would accept a two-state solution with 1967 borders. This is not something the state of Israel will accept and is quite blatant in declaring that they would prefer to keep up the genocide.
- cbeach 9mo ago
  In the 2017 Charter, Hamas states its claims, such as making Jerusalem its capital. However, nowhere in the charter does Hamas state that it will recognise Israel. In fact the document explicitly rejects recognition of Israel and aims for “liberation of all of Palestine” Note also that Hamas never repealed their 1988 charter that called for the annihilation of Israel and contains openly antisemitic language. For a two-state solution to work, Hamas will need to recognise Israel's right to co-exist alongside a Palestine state. And Hamas will need to stop killing innocent Israeli citizens.
  - cess11 9mo ago
    No, they reject zionism: "20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Which is a very reasonable position, since it is a movement predicated on genocidal violence and the crime of apartheid. If the state of Israel were to reform or through revolution become democratic and stop its incessant aggression towards both neighbours and more distant countries, I'm sure Hamas would "recognise Israel". But as I said, this is not an acceptable alternative to the jewish israeli mainstream, nor the zionist movement generally. The palestinians are actually pretty good at not killing "innocent[s]". Much better than the israelis, who have made sport, commerce and dating out of humiliation and terror perpetrated against palestinians.
    - cbeach 9mo ago
      You claim Israel needs to “become democratic” and is an “apartheid” state despite the fact Israel is a functioning pluralist democracy that comprises both Jews and Arabs (unlike Gaza, which expelled Jews and is led by terrorists). By the “Zionist entity,” Hamas are describing Israel. I don’t think you’re ignorant. I think you’re wilfully turning a blind eye to just how hypocritical Hamas are in their criticism of Israel.
oa335 9mo ago
Likud government and charter explicitly calls for all land between the river and the sea to be for Jews.
- cbeach 9mo ago
  That is a territorial/sovereignty claim (i.e., rejecting Palestinian sovereignty/statehood in that space). It is not an explicit call to kill, expel, or physically destroy Palestinians, nor does it literally say “for Jews only.” Under the Genocide Convention, genocide requires specific intent (“intent to destroy, in whole or in part”) a protected group, plus one of the listed genocidal acts (killing; causing serious harm; inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction; preventing births; forcibly transferring children).
  - oa335 9mo ago
    > nor does it literally say “for Jews only.” You are incorrect. The official policy of the current government of Israel is ”the Jewish people have an exclusive right on all the land” between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.” per the coalition agreement the Likud-led government made in 2022: https://archive.is/EYGLU https://archive.is/EYGLU
    - cbeach 9mo ago
      What’s the source for that quote? The article you posted is from a news source I’ve never heard of and doesn’t cite its sources
      - oa335 9mo ago
        https://www.axios.com/authors/barak_ravid https://www.axios.com/authors/barak_ravid Here’s the coalition agreement, see article 118: https://main.knesset.gov.il/mk/government/Documents/CA37-RZ.pdf https://main.knesset.gov.il/mk/government/Documents/CA37-RZ.... Here’s another analysis of the coalition agreement that includes that same quote: https://www.ofekcenter.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/what-Israels-37th-governments-guiding-principles-and-coalition-agreements-mean-for-the-West-Bank-Jan-2023.pdf https://www.ofekcenter.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/wha...