4 ms·

Agreed. I am not a supporter of Nigel Farage and his many different parties in the UK ('Reform' just being the latest incarnation), and I don't believe his pol

by Nursie 10mo ago

Agreed. I am not a supporter of Nigel Farage and his many different parties in the UK ('Reform' just being the latest incarnation), and I don't believe his policies offer any real answers. But what the rise of Reform does show us is the utter disillusionment with the mainstream parties of the UK, who have spent the last several decades afraid to make meaningful changes. They tell people they can't have what they want because it would be too risky/expensive/whatever. We can't do that, the bond markets won't like it. We're running high on debt so we can't afford to make this better. Here, I'm going to add 0.4% to this tax so we can give this service an extra 0.3% budget. All the while government takes more in tax every year but the country feels like it's in a state of managed decline as services struggle. People wonder where all the money is going and there's no particularly good answer. And the managerial politicians' cautious approach hasn't led to economic growth either, so people don't feel like things are getting any easier. With that background it's hardly surprising that the populace flock to someone loudly offering change, even if it's bullshit change. (I left the UK a few years ago but I do visit and keep up on the news. Australia is on a similar path but less extreme, though with accelerating house prices and other forms of inequality, and the collapse of our traditional centre-right, expect things to get more populist in the coming years)

throwaway132448 10mo ago
I agree. Reform's success is utterly predictable. > I don't believe his policies offer any real answers. Indeed, it's a shame that people are too dumb to realise they're just lining themselves up to be fleeced by a different "elite", instead of actual change.
cal_dent 10mo ago
While I sympathise and agree with the point, it’s easiest to blame political parties but the electorate are also to blame. They simply want to have their cake and eat it too. Plenty of times post-GFC where parties have tried or proposed much needed reform only for the voters, gerrymandered by the press, to throw their toys out of the pram. Theresa May’s “demantia tax”, Starmer’s winter fuel allowance for example. Sadly it feels like it’ll probably be taken out of everyone’s hand, through some sort of economic crash or worse, to get people to be realistic again.
- Nursie 10mo ago
  > Starmer’s winter fuel allowance for example. To me this is a prime example of the problem - they were really just fucking around at the edges anyway. It wasn't any sort of major reform. That old scene from Futurama often springs to mind - "I say that your 3% Titanium tax goes too far!" "And I say that your 3% Titanium tax doesn't go too far enough!" I do agree the press are complicit though.
  - cal_dent 10mo ago
    Completely. That was the thing about the winter fuel allowance. It was largely a nothing burger and yet they couldn’t allow them to get it through. You could see almost immediately after they pulled back, what little confidence and ability the government had melt away. It’s been more of the same ever since
neilwilson 10mo ago
You might want to read https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/00213624.2025.2533726?needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/00213624.2025.2... Which will disabuse you of the notion that we are "high on debt". "high on savings" perhaps. We can always afford to make things better. Afford is never the issue. Political will to take on the vested interests is the issue.
- Nursie 10mo ago
  It's not my contention really that the UK or other nation can or can't afford to do things differently, it's more that that is the constant refrain coming from mainstream politics, along with a multitude of other excuses for relative inaction.
jdasdf 10mo ago
>People wonder where all the money is going and there's no particularly good answer. The answer is welfare. That is the original sin of all of this, and the one people refuse to acknowledge. You need to let people fail.
- hengistbury 10mo ago
  The answer is the ultra-wealthy. Those on welfare are getting increasingly poor, while the ultra-wealthy are getting increasingly wealthy. It's clear where the money is going, and it's not to poor people.
- AngryData 10mo ago
  Meanwhile we bail out large corporations on mere speculation they might fail. I don't know where you live, but around me a large chunk of the population have nothing to fail down to other than homelessness which is a huge drag upon the economy.
- Nursie 10mo ago
  That's about 25% of UK government spending. 33% if you include pensions. The UK does have an issue with a lowering number of people in productive work and ever more on various kinds of disability payout, it's true, but this - > You need to let people fail. Doesn't really follow.
  - jdasdf 10mo ago
    As per the UK government for 2026-2027 9.2 Chart D.2: Public sector spending 2026-27: Social protection - 400 b personal social services - 54b health - 294b Education - 145b industry agriculture and employment - 51b housing and environment - 51 billion That accounts for roughly 70% of public sector spending, not 33%. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-document/budget-2025-html#government-spending https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-docum...
    - zipy124 10mo ago
      If education is welfare then so is everything. Defence is welfare becuase before you might have to hire private security. Police and fire serviecs are welfare because they used to be private. etc....
jacquesm 10mo ago
It shows you that, but it also shows you the success of propaganda.
- Nursie 10mo ago
  Yes, that is the other side of the coin, that people are not just attracted to change because of loss of faith in the mainstream, but actually going over to support the populists. And this is not aimed at you, but I do see all too often that people in the more mainstream spaces look at that side of the coin exclusively. "They're supporting reform because they're racist/stupid/brainwashed/propagandised". Sure, sure, those are definitely factors. But the opportunity to do that brainwashing and propagandising is there for a reason.
  - jacquesm 10mo ago
    And those two effects feed off each other in a way that either one of them could never accomplish, the 'sum' (or rather the difference or negative sum) is much larger than those parts individually.
epolanski 10mo ago
> People wonder where all the money is going and there's no particularly good answer. That's because people don't want to open their eyes, it's mostly going in pensions and public services and is increasingly more paid with debt. As for decades and decades politicians have avoided to become unpopular by raising pension ages (or did it way too slowly), those are the results. Look at what happened in France under Macron when he raised pension age or tried to stop the bleeding in public financing: raise in national populism yet again, as if the far right in France (or the far left) had some magic wand (same for reform UK) to stop the bleeding. Actually, if you look at the rightist populist across Europe (Poland, Hungary, Italy) they made the problems worse by actually jumping into very (historically) leftist measures such as throwing even more money at the public (benefits, pensions) at the expense of public debt. Poland feels it slightly less because it has more growth (largely attributed to the nearly 2 millions of Ukrainians that settled there bringing with them their skills and tons of money).

by Nursie 10mo ago

throwaway132448 10mo ago

I agree. Reform's success is utterly predictable. > I don't believe his policies offer any real answers. Indeed, it's a shame that people are too dumb to realise they're just lining themselves up to be fleeced by a different "elite", instead of actual change.

cal_dent 10mo ago

While I sympathise and agree with the point, it’s easiest to blame political parties but the electorate are also to blame. They simply want to have their cake and eat it too. Plenty of times post-GFC where parties have tried or proposed much needed reform only for the voters, gerrymandered by the press, to throw their toys out of the pram. Theresa May’s “demantia tax”, Starmer’s winter fuel allowance for example. Sadly it feels like it’ll probably be taken out of everyone’s hand, through some sort of economic crash or worse, to get people to be realistic again.

Nursie 10mo ago
> Starmer’s winter fuel allowance for example. To me this is a prime example of the problem - they were really just fucking around at the edges anyway. It wasn't any sort of major reform. That old scene from Futurama often springs to mind - "I say that your 3% Titanium tax goes too far!" "And I say that your 3% Titanium tax doesn't go too far enough!" I do agree the press are complicit though.
- cal_dent 10mo ago
  Completely. That was the thing about the winter fuel allowance. It was largely a nothing burger and yet they couldn’t allow them to get it through. You could see almost immediately after they pulled back, what little confidence and ability the government had melt away. It’s been more of the same ever since

neilwilson 10mo ago

You might want to read https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/00213624.2025.2533726?needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/00213624.2025.2... Which will disabuse you of the notion that we are "high on debt". "high on savings" perhaps. We can always afford to make things better. Afford is never the issue. Political will to take on the vested interests is the issue.

Nursie 10mo ago
It's not my contention really that the UK or other nation can or can't afford to do things differently, it's more that that is the constant refrain coming from mainstream politics, along with a multitude of other excuses for relative inaction.

jdasdf 10mo ago

>People wonder where all the money is going and there's no particularly good answer. The answer is welfare. That is the original sin of all of this, and the one people refuse to acknowledge. You need to let people fail.

hengistbury 10mo ago
The answer is the ultra-wealthy. Those on welfare are getting increasingly poor, while the ultra-wealthy are getting increasingly wealthy. It's clear where the money is going, and it's not to poor people.
AngryData 10mo ago
Meanwhile we bail out large corporations on mere speculation they might fail. I don't know where you live, but around me a large chunk of the population have nothing to fail down to other than homelessness which is a huge drag upon the economy.
Nursie 10mo ago
That's about 25% of UK government spending. 33% if you include pensions. The UK does have an issue with a lowering number of people in productive work and ever more on various kinds of disability payout, it's true, but this - > You need to let people fail. Doesn't really follow.
- jdasdf 10mo ago
  As per the UK government for 2026-2027 9.2 Chart D.2: Public sector spending 2026-27: Social protection - 400 b personal social services - 54b health - 294b Education - 145b industry agriculture and employment - 51b housing and environment - 51 billion That accounts for roughly 70% of public sector spending, not 33%. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-document/budget-2025-html#government-spending https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-docum...
  - zipy124 10mo ago
    If education is welfare then so is everything. Defence is welfare becuase before you might have to hire private security. Police and fire serviecs are welfare because they used to be private. etc....

jacquesm 10mo ago

It shows you that, but it also shows you the success of propaganda.

Nursie 10mo ago
Yes, that is the other side of the coin, that people are not just attracted to change because of loss of faith in the mainstream, but actually going over to support the populists. And this is not aimed at you, but I do see all too often that people in the more mainstream spaces look at that side of the coin exclusively. "They're supporting reform because they're racist/stupid/brainwashed/propagandised". Sure, sure, those are definitely factors. But the opportunity to do that brainwashing and propagandising is there for a reason.
- jacquesm 10mo ago
  And those two effects feed off each other in a way that either one of them could never accomplish, the 'sum' (or rather the difference or negative sum) is much larger than those parts individually.

epolanski 10mo ago

> People wonder where all the money is going and there's no particularly good answer. That's because people don't want to open their eyes, it's mostly going in pensions and public services and is increasingly more paid with debt. As for decades and decades politicians have avoided to become unpopular by raising pension ages (or did it way too slowly), those are the results. Look at what happened in France under Macron when he raised pension age or tried to stop the bleeding in public financing: raise in national populism yet again, as if the far right in France (or the far left) had some magic wand (same for reform UK) to stop the bleeding. Actually, if you look at the rightist populist across Europe (Poland, Hungary, Italy) they made the problems worse by actually jumping into very (historically) leftist measures such as throwing even more money at the public (benefits, pensions) at the expense of public debt. Poland feels it slightly less because it has more growth (largely attributed to the nearly 2 millions of Ukrainians that settled there bringing with them their skills and tons of money).