5 ms·

In other words - it's up to Microsoft to allow you to do certain things on your own PC, just like it's been on Android with Google for a while now, as if they d

In other words - it's up to Microsoft to allow you to do certain things on your own PC, just like it's been on Android with Google for a while now, as if they don't the third parties will just refuse to provide their services to you. (inb4 "but Microsoft only provides a report that's interpreted by others" - yes, but ultimately it's up to whether Microsoft chooses to sign the content of a report you want to produce)

cortesoft 10mo ago
I don’t think this is really true… you can choose to opt in to this limitation, and in return you can play certain games that have this type of anti-cheat. Or, you can choose to not opt in, and then you can’t play those particular games. The only thing Microsoft is preventing you from doing on your own PC is having Microsoft lie to the other piece of software.
- seba_dos1 10mo ago
  You may want to look up what SafetyNet Attestation and Play Integrity APIs are being used for.
smileybarry 10mo ago
This is entirely used for anticheat purposes. Ergo, if you want to play with other people in a multiplayer setting, you're required to abide by certain rules: some logical and social, some technical. It's a careful balance between a fully locked down platform (Xbox/PS OS) and just zero measures to prevent cheaters. (No, server-side anticheat is not sufficient, as proven countless times) You're free to use your hardware as you wish, but if you want to disable the Secure Kernel et al, don't be surprised if the gameserver rejects your connection.
- seba_dos1 10mo ago
  Entirely anticheat, then DRM, then banking, then...
  - smileybarry 10mo ago
    We already have media DRM using other methods that aren't as restrictive as you make it out to be. This slippery slope doesn't work.
    - seba_dos1 10mo ago
      The most popular consumer OS out there is already past that slope.
      - smileybarry 10mo ago
        Okay, then I don't get the point you're trying to make. You "slippery slope"'d the Secure Kernel TPM attestation used for multiplayer games into "what if you can't do banking anymore". Like I said (and you agreed), we're already using hardware attestation. So what's the problem with this approach that gets rid of the requirement of anticheat drivers, freeing your hardware? (You can now use that one app that Vanguard preemptively blocks for using a vulnerable driver)
        seba_dos1 10mo ago
        The point is that until now, attestation has not been widely used on PCs, but we can observe this changing and bringing in the pain points known from other platforms.
charcircuit 10mo ago
This is not accurate. It would be more like: Riot would not let you use their servers to play League of Legends with others if you were not using the secure kernel. You are still able to do whatever you want with your own PC, but you can't force others to let you play with them when they don't trust you.
- seba_dos1 10mo ago
  It's perfectly accurate, as Microsoft could let you use Riot's servers without using the secure kernel if they wanted to. And it will not be just game servers. We can already see that on other platforms.
  - charcircuit 10mo ago
    Sure, but then Riot wouldn't trust these signatures anymore and we would go right back to kernel mode anticheat. Microsoft allowing insecure changes to the secure kernel undermines the whole point of it. >We can already see that on other platforms. And it doesnt prevent you from using those devices how you want.
    - seba_dos1 10mo ago
      It does, because when you do, "the third parties (...) just refuse to provide their services to you". Anyone who uses an Android device that doesn't pass the attestation know this well.
      - charcircuit 10mo ago
        >the third parties (...) just refuse to provide their services to you 1. The third parties are not your device. 2. This only prevents their app from attesting in the insecure kernel. You can still use the app with it loaded in the secure kernel. >Anyone who uses an Android device that doesn't pass the attestation know this well. This is quite different because no Android operating system lets you transparently run those apps in a secure vm that would pass attestation. Needing to reflash your device is totally different than the OS transparently loading the app in a secure environment.

cortesoft 10mo ago

I don’t think this is really true… you can choose to opt in to this limitation, and in return you can play certain games that have this type of anti-cheat. Or, you can choose to not opt in, and then you can’t play those particular games. The only thing Microsoft is preventing you from doing on your own PC is having Microsoft lie to the other piece of software.

seba_dos1 10mo ago
You may want to look up what SafetyNet Attestation and Play Integrity APIs are being used for.

smileybarry 10mo ago

This is entirely used for anticheat purposes. Ergo, if you want to play with other people in a multiplayer setting, you're required to abide by certain rules: some logical and social, some technical. It's a careful balance between a fully locked down platform (Xbox/PS OS) and just zero measures to prevent cheaters. (No, server-side anticheat is not sufficient, as proven countless times) You're free to use your hardware as you wish, but if you want to disable the Secure Kernel et al, don't be surprised if the gameserver rejects your connection.

seba_dos1 10mo ago
Entirely anticheat, then DRM, then banking, then...
- smileybarry 10mo ago
  We already have media DRM using other methods that aren't as restrictive as you make it out to be. This slippery slope doesn't work.
  - seba_dos1 10mo ago
    The most popular consumer OS out there is already past that slope.
    - smileybarry 10mo ago
      Okay, then I don't get the point you're trying to make. You "slippery slope"'d the Secure Kernel TPM attestation used for multiplayer games into "what if you can't do banking anymore". Like I said (and you agreed), we're already using hardware attestation. So what's the problem with this approach that gets rid of the requirement of anticheat drivers, freeing your hardware? (You can now use that one app that Vanguard preemptively blocks for using a vulnerable driver)
      - seba_dos1 10mo ago
        The point is that until now, attestation has not been widely used on PCs, but we can observe this changing and bringing in the pain points known from other platforms.

charcircuit 10mo ago

This is not accurate. It would be more like: Riot would not let you use their servers to play League of Legends with others if you were not using the secure kernel. You are still able to do whatever you want with your own PC, but you can't force others to let you play with them when they don't trust you.

seba_dos1 10mo ago
It's perfectly accurate, as Microsoft could let you use Riot's servers without using the secure kernel if they wanted to. And it will not be just game servers. We can already see that on other platforms.
- charcircuit 10mo ago
  Sure, but then Riot wouldn't trust these signatures anymore and we would go right back to kernel mode anticheat. Microsoft allowing insecure changes to the secure kernel undermines the whole point of it. >We can already see that on other platforms. And it doesnt prevent you from using those devices how you want.
  - seba_dos1 10mo ago
    It does, because when you do, "the third parties (...) just refuse to provide their services to you". Anyone who uses an Android device that doesn't pass the attestation know this well.
    - charcircuit 10mo ago
      >the third parties (...) just refuse to provide their services to you 1. The third parties are not your device. 2. This only prevents their app from attesting in the insecure kernel. You can still use the app with it loaded in the secure kernel. >Anyone who uses an Android device that doesn't pass the attestation know this well. This is quite different because no Android operating system lets you transparently run those apps in a secure vm that would pass attestation. Needing to reflash your device is totally different than the OS transparently loading the app in a secure environment.