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Europe certainly does have a problem with Muslim immigration. We've been tolerating and understanding the fuck out of them too, but that doesn't seem to have h

Europe certainly does have a problem with Muslim immigration. We've been tolerating and understanding the fuck out of them too, but that doesn't seem to have helped at all. They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. There are talented people everywhere, but you won't find all that many Western people who killed their own daughters for showing too much skin.

randomchars 14y ago
> They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. Can you show data?
- white_devil 14y ago
  Sure. First, note that there are roughly three times as many Russians in Finland as there are Somalis: http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_kuv_002_en.html http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_ku... Then, look at this: http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_tau_004_fi.html http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_ta... Unfortunately that's only in Finnish, but here are some key words: - "Suomen kansalaiset" = "Finnish citizens". - "Venäjä, entinen Neuvostoliitto" = "Russia, former Soviet Union" - "Raiskausrikokset" = "Rape (-crimes)" Then, take the year 2011 for example. 2011 - Total number of rapes: 644 - Total number of rapes committed by Finns: 474 - Total number of rapes committed by all foreigners: 170 - Total number of rapes committed by Estonians: 15 - Total number of rapes committed by *Russians*: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by Swedes: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by *Other Foreigners: 149* Other than Estonians and Russians, there were 13 other language groups listed. Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower. That leaves us with 110 rapes committed by Somalis. Now I'm no statistician, and not very good at math either. But when Somalis outnumber a much larger minority in rape statistics 110 to 3, it seems that they're pretty fucking Rapey.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    Woah woah woah. Slow down there, you're trying to take a flying leap across a giant statistical chasm. The logic here is so bad I'm not sure where to start. There's a very bad assumption here, which is that the "other foreigners" category contains only the 13 groups listed, and that membership in none of the others implies membership in the Somalis group. In other words, what you're saying is, in government statistics re: rape, everyone in the "other nationality" category is Somali unless they can be attributed to 12 other ethnic groups. This seems specious at best, horrifying twisting of fact at worst. Do you have any evidence that this is what the data says? Or are you reading this out of the data due to your own preexisting prejudices? I'm starting to see what _delirium is describing re: European racism. In other news, there are 100 cars in the parking lot outside. There are 2 Toyotas, 3 Hondas, and 95 "other" cars. Clearly these 95 cars are Fords. [edit] Also need to address this: > "Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower." You can't do this with stats and still claim to remain impartial, or correct. You're trying to use numbers to give legitimacy to your claims, yet right in the middle of the argument you inject huge assumptions with no attempt at even making an educated guess. The moment the words "probably" and "let's be generous" come out of your mouth re: statistics, your numbers have lost almost all meaning. When you're trying to justify incredibly racist views, back of the napkin calculations do not cut it. Let me be frank: GP was skeptical of your claims and asked for substantiation, you have provided numbers that in no way substantiates your claims, and are incredibly vague and full of bad assumptions made in bad faith. I rarely accuse people directly on these forums. You sir, are racist. For the sake of all of us, please re-evaluate your views. Understanding and tolerating them my ass.
    - white_devil 14y ago
      Well, this is certainly an uphill battle.. As I said, I'm no statistician. I can't do science, and I can't do statistics. But that doesn't matter with regard to what I was pointing out. There's a very bad assumption here, which is that the "other foreigners" category contains only the 13 groups listed, and that membership in none of the others implies membership in the Somalis group. Assuming I'm not even pretending to "do statistics" (as a science), and that I'm not even trying to be "rigorous" about it, why is that a bad assumption? Why would it not be reasonable to assume that if a minority is not on that list, it's an insignificant one? Why would membership in none of the others not imply membership in the Somalis group? Again, there's no need to be rigorous here. It's actually common knowledge here in Finland that Somalis rape a lot of women, but I felt like I should point to some statistics instead of just making that claim right away. Otherwise a cold reception like this would have been guaranteed. It's common knowledge in Sweden too, by the way. In Germany, it's the Turks, and in the Netherlands, it's Moroccans. There are people who are aware of reality, and then there are Sheeple, and for whatever reason, the media here (and afaik, all over the countries affected by Muslim immigration) has been systematically covering up the fact that the perpetrators of lots of crimes are, in fact Somalis, and not Finns. Whenever there's news of a gang-rape, they always say it's was a bunch of "younglings" (="nuorukaiset" in Finnish, "ungdomar" in Swedish, "youth" in English news). Without any mention of the ethnicity, the reader will just assume it was locals who did it. Actually, I'm surprised they even publish statistics like those I pointed to. Seriously. How rare is gang-rape among Western men? It's pretty fucking rare. But there have been lots of incidents in Finland in the past years. Does it make sense to assume that Finns have suddenly gotten all gang-rapey? In other news, there are 100 cars in the parking lot outside. There are 2 Toyotas, 3 Hondas, and 95 "other" cars. Clearly these 95 cars are Fords. Well, if we know that those 100 cars consist of Toyotas, Hondas, and Fords, and that 2 are Toyotas and 3 are Hondas, what does that leave us with for the 95 "Others"? You can't do this with stats and still claim to remain impartial, or correct. Again, I never claimed to be rigorous with my stats. That's just an assumption by you. The moment the words "probably" and "let's be generous" come out of your mouth re: statistics, your numbers have lost almost all meaning. When you're trying to justify incredibly racist views, back of the napkin calculations do not cut it. Again, not rigorous. Besides, there was no need to be rigorous. The conclusion is very clear even with a large error margin. Even 110 to 3 is a massive difference, but as I pointed out, it's reasonable to assume that the smallest minorities don't actually count for 3 rapes each, but less. I rarely accuse people directly on these forums. You sir, are racist. For the sake of all of us, please re-evaluate your views. I can see how you'd reach that conclusion, especially since it was what you wanted to conclude all along. But really, Europe does have a Muslim immigration problem. There's no problem with Chinese immigrants, or Western ones, or anyone who comes in and adapts and doesn't cause trouble. But there sure as hell is a problem with Somalis, in both Finland and Sweden. We're all brainwashed by our Western cultures in to viewing the world through rose-colored glasses, but that's not what reality is like. There are differences between races and cultures.
_delirium 14y ago
I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society. The U.S. (where I come from) is not exactly a pinnacle of race relations, but I was shocked by how much worse it is in Europe. There was a professor in my department of Bangladeshi heritage, and she got all sorts of weird comments. And as a CS professor, she was obviously not going about committing crimes, but rather writing research papers, but this didn't seem to matter to people. In Denmark, at least, there's also this inaccurate perception, like what you mention, that immigrants are causing all the violence. But here we have basically two main sources of violence: biker gangs, who are mostly white, and immigrant gangs, who are mostly not. The kinds of people who vote Danske Folkeparti and are really worried about crime never seem to mention the biker gangs. Same in the UK: a huge amount of crime in the UK is caused by lower-class whites, the group sometimes derogatorily termed "chavs", and overlapping with "hooligan" culture. But you don't see the BNP complaining about them. Why? Because that's where their own members come from. Some of my family is Greek, and there is no real tolerance there either, except from a smallish segment of left-wing internationalists. There are 2nd-generation Chinese-origin Greeks who speak perfect Greek and are generally integrated, but are still called racist names and considered "foreigners" by the Greeks who have a very ethnic view of Greekness (the majority).
- white_devil 14y ago
  I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society. Oh? At least in Finland, the situation is actually the exact opposite of that. As far as I know, the same applies all over Scandinavia and Central Europe.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    Weirdly, I was just in Finland two weeks ago, and the first person who randomly approached me and my Finnish friend in a bar in Turku was some drunk guy ranting about immigrants, who wouldn't leave us alone! We thought pretending neither of us could speak Finnish would solve the problem, but it didn't. My friend enjoyed provoking him in English while pretending not to be Finnish, though. They had some kind of argument about "True Finns", and about Janne Holmén. In Copenhagen I would say things aren't too bad, but I wouldn't call it a great degree of tolerance or understanding, more "tolerance" in the sense of "will grit my teeth and tolerate you". Outside Copenhagen, things get progressively worse. And the government doesn't treat the religions equally: the Church of Scientology, of all things, got permission to build a church in Copenhagen, but the government is still holding up construction of a mosque. And Central Europe? It's no fun at all, and possibly physically unsafe, to be Pakistani or black in Poland...

randomchars 14y ago

> They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. Can you show data?

white_devil 14y ago
Sure. First, note that there are roughly three times as many Russians in Finland as there are Somalis: http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_kuv_002_en.html http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_ku... Then, look at this: http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_tau_004_fi.html http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_ta... Unfortunately that's only in Finnish, but here are some key words: - "Suomen kansalaiset" = "Finnish citizens". - "Venäjä, entinen Neuvostoliitto" = "Russia, former Soviet Union" - "Raiskausrikokset" = "Rape (-crimes)" Then, take the year 2011 for example. 2011 - Total number of rapes: 644 - Total number of rapes committed by Finns: 474 - Total number of rapes committed by all foreigners: 170 - Total number of rapes committed by Estonians: 15 - Total number of rapes committed by *Russians*: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by Swedes: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by *Other Foreigners: 149* Other than Estonians and Russians, there were 13 other language groups listed. Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower. That leaves us with 110 rapes committed by Somalis. Now I'm no statistician, and not very good at math either. But when Somalis outnumber a much larger minority in rape statistics 110 to 3, it seems that they're pretty fucking Rapey.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Woah woah woah. Slow down there, you're trying to take a flying leap across a giant statistical chasm. The logic here is so bad I'm not sure where to start. There's a very bad assumption here, which is that the "other foreigners" category contains only the 13 groups listed, and that membership in none of the others implies membership in the Somalis group. In other words, what you're saying is, in government statistics re: rape, everyone in the "other nationality" category is Somali unless they can be attributed to 12 other ethnic groups. This seems specious at best, horrifying twisting of fact at worst. Do you have any evidence that this is what the data says? Or are you reading this out of the data due to your own preexisting prejudices? I'm starting to see what _delirium is describing re: European racism. In other news, there are 100 cars in the parking lot outside. There are 2 Toyotas, 3 Hondas, and 95 "other" cars. Clearly these 95 cars are Fords. [edit] Also need to address this: > "Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower." You can't do this with stats and still claim to remain impartial, or correct. You're trying to use numbers to give legitimacy to your claims, yet right in the middle of the argument you inject huge assumptions with no attempt at even making an educated guess. The moment the words "probably" and "let's be generous" come out of your mouth re: statistics, your numbers have lost almost all meaning. When you're trying to justify incredibly racist views, back of the napkin calculations do not cut it. Let me be frank: GP was skeptical of your claims and asked for substantiation, you have provided numbers that in no way substantiates your claims, and are incredibly vague and full of bad assumptions made in bad faith. I rarely accuse people directly on these forums. You sir, are racist. For the sake of all of us, please re-evaluate your views. Understanding and tolerating them my ass.
  - white_devil 14y ago
    Well, this is certainly an uphill battle.. As I said, I'm no statistician. I can't do science, and I can't do statistics. But that doesn't matter with regard to what I was pointing out. There's a very bad assumption here, which is that the "other foreigners" category contains only the 13 groups listed, and that membership in none of the others implies membership in the Somalis group. Assuming I'm not even pretending to "do statistics" (as a science), and that I'm not even trying to be "rigorous" about it, why is that a bad assumption? Why would it not be reasonable to assume that if a minority is not on that list, it's an insignificant one? Why would membership in none of the others not imply membership in the Somalis group? Again, there's no need to be rigorous here. It's actually common knowledge here in Finland that Somalis rape a lot of women, but I felt like I should point to some statistics instead of just making that claim right away. Otherwise a cold reception like this would have been guaranteed. It's common knowledge in Sweden too, by the way. In Germany, it's the Turks, and in the Netherlands, it's Moroccans. There are people who are aware of reality, and then there are Sheeple, and for whatever reason, the media here (and afaik, all over the countries affected by Muslim immigration) has been systematically covering up the fact that the perpetrators of lots of crimes are, in fact Somalis, and not Finns. Whenever there's news of a gang-rape, they always say it's was a bunch of "younglings" (="nuorukaiset" in Finnish, "ungdomar" in Swedish, "youth" in English news). Without any mention of the ethnicity, the reader will just assume it was locals who did it. Actually, I'm surprised they even publish statistics like those I pointed to. Seriously. How rare is gang-rape among Western men? It's pretty fucking rare. But there have been lots of incidents in Finland in the past years. Does it make sense to assume that Finns have suddenly gotten all gang-rapey? In other news, there are 100 cars in the parking lot outside. There are 2 Toyotas, 3 Hondas, and 95 "other" cars. Clearly these 95 cars are Fords. Well, if we know that those 100 cars consist of Toyotas, Hondas, and Fords, and that 2 are Toyotas and 3 are Hondas, what does that leave us with for the 95 "Others"? You can't do this with stats and still claim to remain impartial, or correct. Again, I never claimed to be rigorous with my stats. That's just an assumption by you. The moment the words "probably" and "let's be generous" come out of your mouth re: statistics, your numbers have lost almost all meaning. When you're trying to justify incredibly racist views, back of the napkin calculations do not cut it. Again, not rigorous. Besides, there was no need to be rigorous. The conclusion is very clear even with a large error margin. Even 110 to 3 is a massive difference, but as I pointed out, it's reasonable to assume that the smallest minorities don't actually count for 3 rapes each, but less. I rarely accuse people directly on these forums. You sir, are racist. For the sake of all of us, please re-evaluate your views. I can see how you'd reach that conclusion, especially since it was what you wanted to conclude all along. But really, Europe does have a Muslim immigration problem. There's no problem with Chinese immigrants, or Western ones, or anyone who comes in and adapts and doesn't cause trouble. But there sure as hell is a problem with Somalis, in both Finland and Sweden. We're all brainwashed by our Western cultures in to viewing the world through rose-colored glasses, but that's not what reality is like. There are differences between races and cultures.

_delirium 14y ago

I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society. The U.S. (where I come from) is not exactly a pinnacle of race relations, but I was shocked by how much worse it is in Europe. There was a professor in my department of Bangladeshi heritage, and she got all sorts of weird comments. And as a CS professor, she was obviously not going about committing crimes, but rather writing research papers, but this didn't seem to matter to people. In Denmark, at least, there's also this inaccurate perception, like what you mention, that immigrants are causing all the violence. But here we have basically two main sources of violence: biker gangs, who are mostly white, and immigrant gangs, who are mostly not. The kinds of people who vote Danske Folkeparti and are really worried about crime never seem to mention the biker gangs. Same in the UK: a huge amount of crime in the UK is caused by lower-class whites, the group sometimes derogatorily termed "chavs", and overlapping with "hooligan" culture. But you don't see the BNP complaining about them. Why? Because that's where their own members come from. Some of my family is Greek, and there is no real tolerance there either, except from a smallish segment of left-wing internationalists. There are 2nd-generation Chinese-origin Greeks who speak perfect Greek and are generally integrated, but are still called racist names and considered "foreigners" by the Greeks who have a very ethnic view of Greekness (the majority).

white_devil 14y ago
I moved to Europe somewhat recently, and I haven't seen any tolerance or understanding: people are incredibly racist towards anyone with non-white skin, and it's socially acceptable to make snide comments about race in polite society. Oh? At least in Finland, the situation is actually the exact opposite of that. As far as I know, the same applies all over Scandinavia and Central Europe.
- _delirium 14y ago
  Weirdly, I was just in Finland two weeks ago, and the first person who randomly approached me and my Finnish friend in a bar in Turku was some drunk guy ranting about immigrants, who wouldn't leave us alone! We thought pretending neither of us could speak Finnish would solve the problem, but it didn't. My friend enjoyed provoking him in English while pretending not to be Finnish, though. They had some kind of argument about "True Finns", and about Janne Holmén. In Copenhagen I would say things aren't too bad, but I wouldn't call it a great degree of tolerance or understanding, more "tolerance" in the sense of "will grit my teeth and tolerate you". Outside Copenhagen, things get progressively worse. And the government doesn't treat the religions equally: the Church of Scientology, of all things, got permission to build a church in Copenhagen, but the government is still holding up construction of a mosque. And Central Europe? It's no fun at all, and possibly physically unsafe, to be Pakistani or black in Poland...