4 ms·

Hot take: it would be better for humanity if computers didn't get faster every year.

by 2OEH8eoCRo0 10mo ago

rilindo 10mo ago
Another hot take: maybe we will see a spike of compiles languages like Go, Rust and WASM, over Python, Ruby, and Node.
- memoriuaysj 10mo ago
  we can use AI to rewrite everything in Rust this way all the RAM that AI data centers scoop up will be used to lessen demand for RAM that those same datacenters created net-zero RAM!
  - shellwizard 10mo ago
    You've got to [download more ram](https://downloadmoreram.com/ https://downloadmoreram.com/)
  - supertrope 10mo ago
    Are you selling renewable memory offset credits? My company is seeking to burnish our ESG reputation.
- baxtr 10mo ago
  Yet another hot take: we won’t see any of that. Instead users will simply get used to waiting.
  - kitsune1 10mo ago
    This. Nodejs and Python were used in 2012, why is now any different?
- 999900000999 10mo ago
  To be fair, we could also just optimize the runtime engines for interpreted languages. I do enjoy golang, but Rust gives me nightmares. I make my living in higher level languages. When I started learning to program JavaScript was just starting to gain popularity outside of the browser. It was the first language I could actually grasp, and I largely think it for giving me a career. No more evictions for me! The only real downside to JavaScript, you know being used as a tool for native apps with stuff like electron is it eats ram. Everything needs to a ship a full chrome binary. But if we go back to native applications, we don't get things like quality Linux ports. If you would have told me 15 years ago that Microsoft would create the most popular IDE on Linux I'd assume that you had misspoke.
- Dwedit 10mo ago
  I actually compared WASM to Javascript for a particular integer-math-heavy task. For a single run, Javascript beat out WASM because WASM had a lot more setup time. After running both 1000 times, they were almost equal in runtime. Yes, even though the Javascript was written using Doubles and the WASM was written using 64 bit ints. It just means that it's possible to write optimized Javascript (mainly by reducing object allocations, reuse objects instead)
  - testdelacc1 10mo ago
    A benchmark of adding numbers doesn’t tell you how it performs on real world websites and codebases. I wouldn’t be surprised if JavaScript was still very competitive, simply because of how good V8 is, but I don’t think we can conclude anything from your benchmark. Of course it is always possible to write highly optimised code. But that’s not what people actually do, because of time, skill and maintenance constraints. Here’s a case study: in 2018 Mozilla ported some code from JS to Rust + WASM and got a 6x speed up [1]. An expert in V8 responded to this with highly optimised JavaScript, saying Maybe you don't need Rust and WASM to speed up your JS [2]. Both articles are worth reading! But it is worth remembering that it’s a lot quicker and easier to write the code in #1 than #2 and it is easier to maintain as well. [1] - https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/01/oxidizing-source-maps-with-rust-and-webassembly/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/01/oxidizing-source-maps-with... [2] - https://mrale.ph/blog/2018/02/03/maybe-you-dont-need-rust-to-speed-up-your-js.html https://mrale.ph/blog/2018/02/03/maybe-you-dont-need-rust-to...
    - bluGill 10mo ago
      V8 means javascript can be fast. However no amount of optimization can get around inefficient code. There is only so much optimizes can do about too many layers of abstraction, calculations that are used but not needed, and nested loops. Someone needs to step back once in a while and fix bottlenecks to make things fast.
    - Dwedit 10mo ago
      It wasn't some dummy "add numbers" loop, this was doing math (multiply-add) on large 336-bit integers. Performance sucked when I used native Javacsript BigInts. When I made my own BigInt by using an array of doubles, and pretended that the doubles were 48-bit integers, performance was much better. Using the arrays meant that all allocation of temporary values completely stopped. I had to write my own multiply-and-add function that would do bigint = bigint * 48-bit number + other bigint + other 48-bit number.
seiferteric 10mo ago
But energy efficiency is improving also.
- entropicdrifter 10mo ago
  Hardware energy efficiency is, but software has been getting less efficient for decades, at least on average.
  - Aurornis 10mo ago
    Consumer PCs and laptops spend most of their time idle. Idle power usage is what matters. The 15 seconds it takes to launch Discord and install updates isn't going to be driving the overall efficiency of your PC.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 10mo ago
      In which case the screen likely uses the most power right?
    - zootboy 10mo ago
      > Consumer PCs and laptops spend most of their time idle Not when Windows gets its grubby mitts on them. I will frequently hear the fans spin up on my Win10 laptop when it should be doing nothing, only to find the Windows Telemetry process or the Search Indexer using an entire fucking CPU core.
- garbawarb 10mo ago
  Which makes it easier to consume more.
- retSava 10mo ago
  It's like with cars - better performing drive trains (et al) is used to increase the power envelope instead of lowering fuel consumption, since that leads to more sales allegedly.
  - 10mo ago
CamperBob2 10mo ago
Really? At what point should we have drawn the line?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 10mo ago
  I'm typing this on my primary PC with a twelve year old CPU. Make the cutoff 2026. If you really need more cycles than we have today to solve a problem you're doing something wrong! Stop creating waste and forcing us to buy new trash all of the time.
  - CamperBob2 10mo ago
    Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if you get your wish. The consensus among those with power and influence seems to be that there is now too much computing power in the hands of the common people -- or at least too much RAM -- and it's time to bring the fire back up the mountain.
numpad0 10mo ago
That's where planned obsolescence comes into play!

Hot take: it would be better for humanity if computers didn't get faster every year.

rilindo 10mo ago

Another hot take: maybe we will see a spike of compiles languages like Go, Rust and WASM, over Python, Ruby, and Node.

memoriuaysj 10mo ago
we can use AI to rewrite everything in Rust this way all the RAM that AI data centers scoop up will be used to lessen demand for RAM that those same datacenters created net-zero RAM!
- shellwizard 10mo ago
  You've got to [download more ram](https://downloadmoreram.com/ https://downloadmoreram.com/)
- supertrope 10mo ago
  Are you selling renewable memory offset credits? My company is seeking to burnish our ESG reputation.
baxtr 10mo ago
Yet another hot take: we won’t see any of that. Instead users will simply get used to waiting.
- kitsune1 10mo ago
  This. Nodejs and Python were used in 2012, why is now any different?
999900000999 10mo ago
To be fair, we could also just optimize the runtime engines for interpreted languages. I do enjoy golang, but Rust gives me nightmares. I make my living in higher level languages. When I started learning to program JavaScript was just starting to gain popularity outside of the browser. It was the first language I could actually grasp, and I largely think it for giving me a career. No more evictions for me! The only real downside to JavaScript, you know being used as a tool for native apps with stuff like electron is it eats ram. Everything needs to a ship a full chrome binary. But if we go back to native applications, we don't get things like quality Linux ports. If you would have told me 15 years ago that Microsoft would create the most popular IDE on Linux I'd assume that you had misspoke.
Dwedit 10mo ago
I actually compared WASM to Javascript for a particular integer-math-heavy task. For a single run, Javascript beat out WASM because WASM had a lot more setup time. After running both 1000 times, they were almost equal in runtime. Yes, even though the Javascript was written using Doubles and the WASM was written using 64 bit ints. It just means that it's possible to write optimized Javascript (mainly by reducing object allocations, reuse objects instead)
- testdelacc1 10mo ago
  A benchmark of adding numbers doesn’t tell you how it performs on real world websites and codebases. I wouldn’t be surprised if JavaScript was still very competitive, simply because of how good V8 is, but I don’t think we can conclude anything from your benchmark. Of course it is always possible to write highly optimised code. But that’s not what people actually do, because of time, skill and maintenance constraints. Here’s a case study: in 2018 Mozilla ported some code from JS to Rust + WASM and got a 6x speed up [1]. An expert in V8 responded to this with highly optimised JavaScript, saying Maybe you don't need Rust and WASM to speed up your JS [2]. Both articles are worth reading! But it is worth remembering that it’s a lot quicker and easier to write the code in #1 than #2 and it is easier to maintain as well. [1] - https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/01/oxidizing-source-maps-with-rust-and-webassembly/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/01/oxidizing-source-maps-with... [2] - https://mrale.ph/blog/2018/02/03/maybe-you-dont-need-rust-to-speed-up-your-js.html https://mrale.ph/blog/2018/02/03/maybe-you-dont-need-rust-to...
  - bluGill 10mo ago
    V8 means javascript can be fast. However no amount of optimization can get around inefficient code. There is only so much optimizes can do about too many layers of abstraction, calculations that are used but not needed, and nested loops. Someone needs to step back once in a while and fix bottlenecks to make things fast.
  - Dwedit 10mo ago
    It wasn't some dummy "add numbers" loop, this was doing math (multiply-add) on large 336-bit integers. Performance sucked when I used native Javacsript BigInts. When I made my own BigInt by using an array of doubles, and pretended that the doubles were 48-bit integers, performance was much better. Using the arrays meant that all allocation of temporary values completely stopped. I had to write my own multiply-and-add function that would do bigint = bigint * 48-bit number + other bigint + other 48-bit number.

seiferteric 10mo ago

But energy efficiency is improving also.

entropicdrifter 10mo ago
Hardware energy efficiency is, but software has been getting less efficient for decades, at least on average.
- Aurornis 10mo ago
  Consumer PCs and laptops spend most of their time idle. Idle power usage is what matters. The 15 seconds it takes to launch Discord and install updates isn't going to be driving the overall efficiency of your PC.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 10mo ago
    In which case the screen likely uses the most power right?
  - zootboy 10mo ago
    > Consumer PCs and laptops spend most of their time idle Not when Windows gets its grubby mitts on them. I will frequently hear the fans spin up on my Win10 laptop when it should be doing nothing, only to find the Windows Telemetry process or the Search Indexer using an entire fucking CPU core.
garbawarb 10mo ago
Which makes it easier to consume more.
retSava 10mo ago
It's like with cars - better performing drive trains (et al) is used to increase the power envelope instead of lowering fuel consumption, since that leads to more sales allegedly.
- 10mo ago

CamperBob2 10mo ago

Really? At what point should we have drawn the line?

2OEH8eoCRo0 10mo ago
I'm typing this on my primary PC with a twelve year old CPU. Make the cutoff 2026. If you really need more cycles than we have today to solve a problem you're doing something wrong! Stop creating waste and forcing us to buy new trash all of the time.
- CamperBob2 10mo ago
  Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if you get your wish. The consensus among those with power and influence seems to be that there is now too much computing power in the hands of the common people -- or at least too much RAM -- and it's time to bring the fire back up the mountain.

numpad0 10mo ago

That's where planned obsolescence comes into play!