3 ms·

One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't. I did hear an interestin

by gadders 9mo ago

One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't. I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy that said "If you punch a whole in a plasterboard wall, it is now cheaper to buy a TV to cover the hole than get someone to repair the plasterboard."

alvah 9mo ago
"One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't." This is one of the central theories behind Kartik Gada's ATOM concept. He may come across as a bit of crank to some, but he has some interesting ideas.
Someone 9mo ago
> One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled But what’s cause and what’s effect? Things that get cheaper over time don’t need price regulation to ensure that people who need them can afford to buy them, for example.
squigz 9mo ago
Now let's compare reliability/longevity of things that are more regulated than not. I don't care how cheap TVs are if I have to buy a new one every 1 or 2 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
- xnx 9mo ago
  > I have to buy a new one every 1 or 2 years Is that a problem? I've probably purchased 7 TVs over the decades and only had one fail (replaced under warranty).
rahimnathwani 9mo ago
I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy Marc Andreesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_1cTlLpNMg&t=4262s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_1cTlLpNMg&t=4262s
- gadders 9mo ago
  Thank you. I thought it was a VC but couldn't remember who.
lesuorac 9mo ago
It's definitely cheaper for me to run to home depot and buy plaster and paint then it's to go to Walmart and buy a TV I'd like. Although in reality, I'd just go in my basement and get the leftover supplies ... Alternatively, I could just buy a blank electrical cover (or a picture) and put it on the wall.
rascul 9mo ago
> I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy that said "If you punch a whole in a plasterboard wall, it is now cheaper to buy a TV to cover the hole than get someone to repair the plasterboard." Quicker, also.
no_wizard 9mo ago
I’d need to see evidence of unreasonable regulatory burden pushing costs up. I take claims like this on a case by case basis because it’s rarely so linear. Businesses always claim “regulation makes prices higher” but deregulation has not resulted in cheaper goods over time in aggregate. Consumer electronics seem to be a pricing exception and I think it’s largely automation and outsourced production as the regulations haven’t changed substantially in some time.
- rocmcd 9mo ago
  Yeah, I'm not aware of any regulation preventing new painters/drywallers from entering the market that would drive up costs. This is a pretty straightforward example of the Baumol effect, where _anything_ bespoke (not manufactured) requiring a human is simply going to cost more. The materials for patching drywall/plaster are tiny, it's the cost of the person that is expensive because overall cost of living is rising. The cost of outsourced labor (which you can leverage when making a TV, but can't for local labor) also probably plays a role. In fact, I bet you could find someone to fix the drywall/plaster much cheaper than the cost of a TV. You just won't like the quality of the work.
  - ryandrake 9mo ago
    You can also do drywall and plaster yourself. It's not that hard.
- red-iron-pine 9mo ago
  > deregulation has not resulted in cheaper goods over time in aggregate letting evil corps get away with anything leads to them jacking up prices anyways -- who would have guessed?
pjc50 9mo ago
No, this is a goods v services thing. The most critical determinant of the cost of things is "do you absolutely have to do this in a Western country by people who are legally entitled to work there, and even worse, in or near a major city?" I don't have references, but I suspect that the people working in the TV factory do not find that the TVs are cheaper than finding a local plasterer. The TVs can be easily imported to the West from somewhere cheaper. The labour cannot, and there's an entire regulatory infrastructure dedicated to keeping such labour expensive. So you see price rises in all the labour-intensive non-exportable industries; trades, healthcare, education, law enforcement, hospitality, and so on. While anything that can be put on a boat gets comparably cheaper. (this is my variant on the Baumol Cost Disease argument, which is in the graph in the article already)
- rahimnathwani 9mo ago
  but I suspect that the people working in the TV factory do not find that the TVs are cheaper than finding a local plasterer I wonder whether this is true of Tesla factories in the USA? If you have a very badly wrecked Tesla with some valuable salvageable parts, would it be cheaper to buy a new Tesla or to pay someone to replace the 80% of parts that need replacing. I suspect the new one would be cheaper. Automation and economies of scale matter, not just labour costs.
palmotea 9mo ago
> One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't. > I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy that said "If you punch a whole in a plasterboard wall, it is now cheaper to buy a TV to cover the hole than get someone to repair the plasterboard." Isn't that Baumol's cost disease (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect), not regulation? As manufactured goods get cheaper, labor gets relatively expensive. The expensive part of patching a hole in a wall is not the materials, it's having a guy come and do that work. There's no opportunity for automation or economies of scale with having a guy come over to your house to deal with your specific situation, but there are tons of those in a factory. An even cheaper way of covering the hole than a TV is to hang up a rough piece of drywall without competent installation. Also, I'd be wary of quotes from "someone techy," tech people can be pretty shallow and stupid, and it's pretty obvious that whoever was said that quote was going for shock/cleverness and sacrificed truth and understanding.
- rahimnathwani 9mo ago
  and it's pretty obvious that whoever was said that quote was going for shock/cleverness and sacrificed truth and understanding It's not obvious from the quote, which just states something that is obviously true, and doesn't attempt to explain it. But ... Andreessen has elsewhere claimed it's due to regulation: https://pmarca.substack.com/p/why-ai-wont-cause-unemployment https://pmarca.substack.com/p/why-ai-wont-cause-unemployment But ... more recently his firm has explained they know what Baumol's cost disease is: https://a16z.com/why-ac-is-cheap-but-ac-repair-is-a-luxury/ https://a16z.com/why-ac-is-cheap-but-ac-repair-is-a-luxury/
  - palmotea 9mo ago
    Is Andreessen the source of the OP's quote? He does have his head up his ass, so I wouldn't be surprised [1]. However, he doesn't really say anything close enough in either of the articles you linked. [1] FFS, he really implies day care is expensive because regulation is preventing "technology [from] whipping through" the sector like it has in TV manufacturing. I don't want to live in his nightmare fantasy. But in the spirit of deregulation and techno-utopianism, here's an idea to use technology to slash day care prices that's held back by evil government regulation: lock kids in padded rooms while their parents work. Maybe stick a TV on the wall playing Cocomelon. It requires no labor for supervision, and the kids can't get hurt because the room is padded. That's a "technological innovation" that will "push down prices while increasing quality," for certain definitions of "quality."
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

by gadders 9mo ago

alvah 9mo ago

"One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't." This is one of the central theories behind Kartik Gada's ATOM concept. He may come across as a bit of crank to some, but he has some interesting ideas.

Someone 9mo ago

> One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled But what’s cause and what’s effect? Things that get cheaper over time don’t need price regulation to ensure that people who need them can afford to buy them, for example.

squigz 9mo ago

Now let's compare reliability/longevity of things that are more regulated than not. I don't care how cheap TVs are if I have to buy a new one every 1 or 2 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

xnx 9mo ago
> I have to buy a new one every 1 or 2 years Is that a problem? I've probably purchased 7 TVs over the decades and only had one fail (replaced under warranty).

rahimnathwani 9mo ago

I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy Marc Andreesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_1cTlLpNMg&t=4262s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_1cTlLpNMg&t=4262s

gadders 9mo ago
Thank you. I thought it was a VC but couldn't remember who.

lesuorac 9mo ago

It's definitely cheaper for me to run to home depot and buy plaster and paint then it's to go to Walmart and buy a TV I'd like. Although in reality, I'd just go in my basement and get the leftover supplies ... Alternatively, I could just buy a blank electrical cover (or a picture) and put it on the wall.

rascul 9mo ago

> I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy that said "If you punch a whole in a plasterboard wall, it is now cheaper to buy a TV to cover the hole than get someone to repair the plasterboard." Quicker, also.

no_wizard 9mo ago

I’d need to see evidence of unreasonable regulatory burden pushing costs up. I take claims like this on a case by case basis because it’s rarely so linear. Businesses always claim “regulation makes prices higher” but deregulation has not resulted in cheaper goods over time in aggregate. Consumer electronics seem to be a pricing exception and I think it’s largely automation and outsourced production as the regulations haven’t changed substantially in some time.

rocmcd 9mo ago
Yeah, I'm not aware of any regulation preventing new painters/drywallers from entering the market that would drive up costs. This is a pretty straightforward example of the Baumol effect, where _anything_ bespoke (not manufactured) requiring a human is simply going to cost more. The materials for patching drywall/plaster are tiny, it's the cost of the person that is expensive because overall cost of living is rising. The cost of outsourced labor (which you can leverage when making a TV, but can't for local labor) also probably plays a role. In fact, I bet you could find someone to fix the drywall/plaster much cheaper than the cost of a TV. You just won't like the quality of the work.
- ryandrake 9mo ago
  You can also do drywall and plaster yourself. It's not that hard.
red-iron-pine 9mo ago
> deregulation has not resulted in cheaper goods over time in aggregate letting evil corps get away with anything leads to them jacking up prices anyways -- who would have guessed?

pjc50 9mo ago

No, this is a goods v services thing. The most critical determinant of the cost of things is "do you absolutely have to do this in a Western country by people who are legally entitled to work there, and even worse, in or near a major city?" I don't have references, but I suspect that the people working in the TV factory do not find that the TVs are cheaper than finding a local plasterer. The TVs can be easily imported to the West from somewhere cheaper. The labour cannot, and there's an entire regulatory infrastructure dedicated to keeping such labour expensive. So you see price rises in all the labour-intensive non-exportable industries; trades, healthcare, education, law enforcement, hospitality, and so on. While anything that can be put on a boat gets comparably cheaper. (this is my variant on the Baumol Cost Disease argument, which is in the graph in the article already)

rahimnathwani 9mo ago
but I suspect that the people working in the TV factory do not find that the TVs are cheaper than finding a local plasterer I wonder whether this is true of Tesla factories in the USA? If you have a very badly wrecked Tesla with some valuable salvageable parts, would it be cheaper to buy a new Tesla or to pay someone to replace the 80% of parts that need replacing. I suspect the new one would be cheaper. Automation and economies of scale matter, not just labour costs.

palmotea 9mo ago

> One point is that the things that have increased in cost are more heavily regulated/government controlled than the items that haven't. > I did hear an interesting quote from someone techy that said "If you punch a whole in a plasterboard wall, it is now cheaper to buy a TV to cover the hole than get someone to repair the plasterboard." Isn't that Baumol's cost disease (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect), not regulation? As manufactured goods get cheaper, labor gets relatively expensive. The expensive part of patching a hole in a wall is not the materials, it's having a guy come and do that work. There's no opportunity for automation or economies of scale with having a guy come over to your house to deal with your specific situation, but there are tons of those in a factory. An even cheaper way of covering the hole than a TV is to hang up a rough piece of drywall without competent installation. Also, I'd be wary of quotes from "someone techy," tech people can be pretty shallow and stupid, and it's pretty obvious that whoever was said that quote was going for shock/cleverness and sacrificed truth and understanding.

rahimnathwani 9mo ago
and it's pretty obvious that whoever was said that quote was going for shock/cleverness and sacrificed truth and understanding It's not obvious from the quote, which just states something that is obviously true, and doesn't attempt to explain it. But ... Andreessen has elsewhere claimed it's due to regulation: https://pmarca.substack.com/p/why-ai-wont-cause-unemployment https://pmarca.substack.com/p/why-ai-wont-cause-unemployment But ... more recently his firm has explained they know what Baumol's cost disease is: https://a16z.com/why-ac-is-cheap-but-ac-repair-is-a-luxury/ https://a16z.com/why-ac-is-cheap-but-ac-repair-is-a-luxury/
- palmotea 9mo ago
  Is Andreessen the source of the OP's quote? He does have his head up his ass, so I wouldn't be surprised [1]. However, he doesn't really say anything close enough in either of the articles you linked. [1] FFS, he really implies day care is expensive because regulation is preventing "technology [from] whipping through" the sector like it has in TV manufacturing. I don't want to live in his nightmare fantasy. But in the spirit of deregulation and techno-utopianism, here's an idea to use technology to slash day care prices that's held back by evil government regulation: lock kids in padded rooms while their parents work. Maybe stick a TV on the wall playing Cocomelon. It requires no labor for supervision, and the kids can't get hurt because the room is padded. That's a "technological innovation" that will "push down prices while increasing quality," for certain definitions of "quality."

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]