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> "(although it has failed quite miserably so far when it comes to Hispanic and African Americans)." I wouldn't exactly describe African Americans as immigrant

> "(although it has failed quite miserably so far when it comes to Hispanic and African Americans)." I wouldn't exactly describe African Americans as immigrants per se... It seems to imply a level of volunteerism that simply wasn't there. Anyways, that's a nitpick. > "Note that I'm talking about implementing stricter immigration policies going forward, not getting rid of people who are already here." Right, but how do you know there aren't any bad apples in the people who are already here? Also bear in mind that of all Muslim terrorists who have committed an act of terrorism on American soil, many were visitors to the US, not immigrants. Do you believe we should also restrict Muslim visitation of the USA? How many more extremists do you think we will create within the existing Muslim population if we essentially had a big "Muslims go home" sign at every border checkpoint? What would it to do in terms of our desire to assimilate these immigrants? Your idea is fun to think about, but IMO it's not realistic. There are too many moving pieces for "no more Muslims in the US" to be a realistic policy choice. Not to mention the costs would be rather high. Go to any of the top US schools and look at both the grad student and professor rosters, count the people of Middle Eastern decent or of Muslim faith. These are all huge wins for American society - both in talent addition and talent denial to rival regimes. Do you really want all of these people to, say, go work for the Chinese? Or Iran? US hegemony is ensured in large (and put large in big screaming rainbow marquee letters) part by talent acquisition. We took much of Europe's best scientific talent after WW2, and we continued mopping up all the smartest and most talented people from all over the globe - Japan, China, India, the whole Eastern Bloc, and beyond. The US's lead over everyone else is economic and technological - leaving a whole swathe of educated immigrants on the table seems to go very firmly against this model. Slamming the door shut on immigration would be like starving yourself so you don't have to poop - it would work, but why?

simonh 14y ago
Our current government here in the UK is doing this at the moment. They even revoked a university's license to accept foreign students on a technicality. We make a fortune out of foreign students and with our demographics need them far more than the US, but according to the Daily Mail reading grey brigade if we packed them all off home, all our troubles would be over. Because simplistic, sweeping, poorly thought out solutions to deep rooted cultural and economic issues always work out so well.
- lmm 14y ago
  It wasn't a technicality. While the response may have been disproportionate, we're talking about brazen corruption from LMU; I have very little sympathy for them.
- whyhellothere 14y ago
  That 'technicality'(1) was the universities lack of effective checks on students right to be in the UK, which they had 6 months to fix. I don't disagree that foreign students bring a lot to this country, and that the handling of this thing by the government was extremely poor (2), but you're conflating two different issues in order to make a point about the Daily Mail. It seems like you're guilty of the same simplistic arguments. (1) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19419395 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19419395 (2) http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/aug/30/london-metropolitan-university-international-students http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/aug/30/london-metro...
white_devil 14y ago
Europe certainly does have a problem with Muslim immigration. We've been tolerating and understanding the fuck out of them too, but that doesn't seem to have helped at all. They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. There are talented people everywhere, but you won't find all that many Western people who killed their own daughters for showing too much skin.
- randomchars 14y ago
  > They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. Can you show data?
  - white_devil 14y ago
    Sure. First, note that there are roughly three times as many Russians in Finland as there are Somalis: http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_kuv_002_en.html http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_ku... Then, look at this: http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_tau_004_fi.html http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_ta... Unfortunately that's only in Finnish, but here are some key words: - "Suomen kansalaiset" = "Finnish citizens". - "Venäjä, entinen Neuvostoliitto" = "Russia, former Soviet Union" - "Raiskausrikokset" = "Rape (-crimes)" Then, take the year 2011 for example. 2011 - Total number of rapes: 644 - Total number of rapes committed by Finns: 474 - Total number of rapes committed by all foreigners: 170 - Total number of rapes committed by Estonians: 15 - Total number of rapes committed by *Russians*: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by Swedes: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by *Other Foreigners: 149* Other than Estonians and Russians, there were 13 other language groups listed. Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower. That leaves us with 110 rapes committed by Somalis. Now I'm no statistician, and not very good at math either. But when Somalis outnumber a much larger minority in rape statistics 110 to 3, it seems that they're pretty fucking Rapey.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
w1ntermute 14y ago
> Right, but how do you know there aren't any bad apples in the people who are already here? Part of ICE's job is to deport any foreign nationals who are a danger to the country, and I think this would be acceptable action. For example, ICE failed to detect and deport/imprison the 9/11 attackers before 9/11, even though they were in the US legally. > Also bear in mind that of all Muslim terrorists who have committed an act of terrorism on American soil, many were visitors to the US, not immigrants. Do you believe we should also restrict Muslim visitation of the USA? Restrictions should have nothing to do with religion. It's a matter of doing the proper legwork to ensure that those who are a danger to the country, Muslim or otherwise, are not allowed in. > Your idea is fun to think about, but IMO it's not realistic. There are too many moving pieces for "no more Muslims in the US" to be a realistic policy choice. You're attempting to use reductio ad absurdum. I never suggested that there shouldn't be any more Muslims in the US. > Go to any of the top US schools and look at both the grad student and professor rosters, count the people of Middle Eastern decent or of Muslim faith. These are all huge wins for American society - both in talent addition and talent denial to rival regimes. Do you really want all of these people to, say, go work for the Chinese? Or Iran? Strawman. I never suggested that educated people with a significant contribution to make to the country shouldn't be allowed in. My statement was mostly applicable to Europe actually, where they allowed in a lot of poor and uneducated Muslims who ended up living in Muslim ghettos and failing to assimilate into mainstream European society. They're now well known for killing their daughters for talking with a guy not related to them and keeping them from getting a higher education.

simonh 14y ago

Our current government here in the UK is doing this at the moment. They even revoked a university's license to accept foreign students on a technicality. We make a fortune out of foreign students and with our demographics need them far more than the US, but according to the Daily Mail reading grey brigade if we packed them all off home, all our troubles would be over. Because simplistic, sweeping, poorly thought out solutions to deep rooted cultural and economic issues always work out so well.

lmm 14y ago
It wasn't a technicality. While the response may have been disproportionate, we're talking about brazen corruption from LMU; I have very little sympathy for them.
whyhellothere 14y ago
That 'technicality'(1) was the universities lack of effective checks on students right to be in the UK, which they had 6 months to fix. I don't disagree that foreign students bring a lot to this country, and that the handling of this thing by the government was extremely poor (2), but you're conflating two different issues in order to make a point about the Daily Mail. It seems like you're guilty of the same simplistic arguments. (1) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19419395 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19419395 (2) http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/aug/30/london-metropolitan-university-international-students http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/aug/30/london-metro...

white_devil 14y ago

Europe certainly does have a problem with Muslim immigration. We've been tolerating and understanding the fuck out of them too, but that doesn't seem to have helped at all. They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. There are talented people everywhere, but you won't find all that many Western people who killed their own daughters for showing too much skin.

randomchars 14y ago
> They're massively over-represented in crime statistics. Can you show data?
- white_devil 14y ago
  Sure. First, note that there are roughly three times as many Russians in Finland as there are Somalis: http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_kuv_002_en.html http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2011/vaerak_2011_2012-03-16_ku... Then, look at this: http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_tau_004_fi.html http://www.stat.fi/til/polrik/2011/polrik_2011_2012-04-02_ta... Unfortunately that's only in Finnish, but here are some key words: - "Suomen kansalaiset" = "Finnish citizens". - "Venäjä, entinen Neuvostoliitto" = "Russia, former Soviet Union" - "Raiskausrikokset" = "Rape (-crimes)" Then, take the year 2011 for example. 2011 - Total number of rapes: 644 - Total number of rapes committed by Finns: 474 - Total number of rapes committed by all foreigners: 170 - Total number of rapes committed by Estonians: 15 - Total number of rapes committed by *Russians*: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by Swedes: 3 - Total number of rapes committed by *Other Foreigners: 149* Other than Estonians and Russians, there were 13 other language groups listed. Let's be "generous" and assume they account for 3 rapes each, much like Russians and Swedes, even though they're much smaller minorities so the numbers are probably much lower. That leaves us with 110 rapes committed by Somalis. Now I'm no statistician, and not very good at math either. But when Somalis outnumber a much larger minority in rape statistics 110 to 3, it seems that they're pretty fucking Rapey.
  - potatolicious 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago

> Right, but how do you know there aren't any bad apples in the people who are already here? Part of ICE's job is to deport any foreign nationals who are a danger to the country, and I think this would be acceptable action. For example, ICE failed to detect and deport/imprison the 9/11 attackers before 9/11, even though they were in the US legally. > Also bear in mind that of all Muslim terrorists who have committed an act of terrorism on American soil, many were visitors to the US, not immigrants. Do you believe we should also restrict Muslim visitation of the USA? Restrictions should have nothing to do with religion. It's a matter of doing the proper legwork to ensure that those who are a danger to the country, Muslim or otherwise, are not allowed in. > Your idea is fun to think about, but IMO it's not realistic. There are too many moving pieces for "no more Muslims in the US" to be a realistic policy choice. You're attempting to use reductio ad absurdum. I never suggested that there shouldn't be any more Muslims in the US. > Go to any of the top US schools and look at both the grad student and professor rosters, count the people of Middle Eastern decent or of Muslim faith. These are all huge wins for American society - both in talent addition and talent denial to rival regimes. Do you really want all of these people to, say, go work for the Chinese? Or Iran? Strawman. I never suggested that educated people with a significant contribution to make to the country shouldn't be allowed in. My statement was mostly applicable to Europe actually, where they allowed in a lot of poor and uneducated Muslims who ended up living in Muslim ghettos and failing to assimilate into mainstream European society. They're now well known for killing their daughters for talking with a guy not related to them and keeping them from getting a higher education.