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>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs will just go back to what they were before - a bunch of desert nomads with no real power Here's a nice summary of arab contributions to mathematics. http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/arab/arab.html http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/arab/arab.html

w1ntermute 14y ago
> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long & hard battle, one that may not be won for quite a while. > Here's a nice summary of arab contributions to mathematics. I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  >There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long & hard battle, one that may not be won for quite a while. I'm guessing/hoping that Big Oil will be killed by grassroots innovation, open hardware designs that don't have companies behind them that can be bought out and their patented tech buried. If it's simply a matter of spending money or killing a few people to keep the gravy train going, they'll do it. >I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist. True.
- randomchars 14y ago
  > I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist. No math = No modern world. Got it?
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    No, you're the one that still doesn't get it. Who invented algebra 1000 years ago is entirely irrelevant to modern geopolitics.
    - randomchars 14y ago
      It's not irrelevant. Without math we wouldn't have a modern society. But if you insist that it's irrelevant than Arabs being desert nomads is irrelevant to modern geopolitics too.
      - w1ntermute 14y ago
        Once again, my point flies right over your head. > It's not irrelevant. Without math we wouldn't have a modern society. Correct, but who made those discoveries has no relevance to modern geopolitical strategy. > But if you insist that it's irrelevant than Arabs being desert nomads is irrelevant to modern geopolitics too. I already stated how that fact is relevant, but you chose to ignore it. If the Arabs weren't desert nomads, they might be a credible threat to the US even without oil. It seems that everyone here is taking offense at the fact that I called Arabs "desert nomads". The point I was trying to make is that without oil, the Arabs don't pose a threat to America.
- Volpe 14y ago
  I'm amazed at the hubris shown towards a civilisation that has existed far longer than your own. Please reflect more on this. Your "solution" to this problem is just to oversimplify everything and solve these simple problems. A clear flag, that you lack the education to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > I'm amazed at the hubris shown towards a civilisation that has existed far longer than your own. I don't understand why the age of a civilization should be a matter of pride. This is an entirely arbitrary point of distinction and has no real relevance to the conversation at hand. > Your "solution" to this problem is just to oversimplify everything and solve these simple problems. A clear flag, that you lack the education to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion. And your inability to literal make any meaningful statements other than ad hominem attacks against me suggests that you need to go back to high school and study logic and debate.
    - Volpe 14y ago
      > I don't understand why the age of a civilization should be a matter of pride. This is an entirely arbitrary point of distinction and has no real relevance to the conversation at hand. > And your inability to literal make any meaningful statements other than ad hominem attacks against me suggests that you need to go back to high school and study logic and debate. It is arrogant to assume a single countries path is correct vs a much older civilisation, given that single country has not stood the same test of time. It was not intended as an ad hominem. Only that a meaningful debate could only be made with you, were you open to learning the full history and reasons behind the current problems. After reading your comments so far it is apparent you aren't open to learning these things. I'm sorry if you took offense.
      - w1ntermute 14y ago
        > It is arrogant to assume a single countries path is correct vs a much older civilisation, given that single country has not stood the same test of time. Once again, the point flew over your head. This has nothing to do with correctness, it has to do with maintaining America's global hegemony. And Arab "civilization" is a tenuous concept. Many modern Arab countries didn't exist until less than a century ago. Given the horrific exploitation the Arab peoples suffered at the hands of Europeans, I'd say that their countries haven't withstood the test of time very well. > Only that a meaningful debate could only be made with you, were you open to learning the full history and reasons behind the current problems. After reading your comments so far it is apparent you aren't open to learning these things. The only thing that's apparent is that you're completely misunderstanding the purpose of my initial comment. It wasn't intended as a normative dismissal of Arab or Muslim culture, it was intended to be a suggested improvement of America's geopolitical current strategy.
- patrickk 14y ago
  > I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. Math is timeless unless it's mistaken. ...there’s an alternative math metaphor we might use: calculus. The calculus metaphor asks whether and how we can figure out exactly what’s going to happen. Take NASA and the Apollo missions, for instance. You have to figure out where the moon is going to be, exactly. You have to plan whether a rocket has enough fuel to reach it. And so on. The point is that no one would want to ride in a statistically, probabilistically-informed spaceship. http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1 http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1 The origins of calculus can be traced to ancient times. Moon rockets. Let that sink in. Elon Musk and anyone else who pushes that envelope must stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before him, including Arabic mathematicians (indirectly). What about mathematics that are thousands of years old, i.e. geometry from the ancient Greeks? Buildings with architecture based on the golden ratio[1] are aesthetically very pleasing, e.g. Georgian architecture[2]. Far nicer and better proportioned than most of the shit that's hastily thrown up all over the world today. Every time you fire up your computer, you're taking advantage of boolean algebra[3], first laid down in the 1850s by George Boole, which is critical to modern computer science. Mathematical contributions from hundreds of years ago has an incredible amount of relevance to the modern world, in countless different ways. I wish I knew more about the history of mathematics to counter you more forcefully. I would also urge you to read this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Civilization-Killer-Apps-Western-Power/dp/0141044586 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Civilization-Killer-Apps-Western-Pow... It shows how that in the 15th century, Europe was a shithole backwater, plagued by diseases and wars, and other civilisations like the Chinese and Arabic ones were far more advanced. By various accidents of history, the western world dominated the rest over the next 500 years. Some would argue that the wests' power is currently on the wane, and China is rising again. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_architecture [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra
snambi 14y ago
while talking about mathematics, please include this as well. Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 History may paint a different picture, but essentially its terrorism in its true form.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  Does Muslim violence negate arab achievement in mathematics? If so, does the US killing of native Americans negate US scientific achievement?
  - snambi 14y ago
    btw, many of the arab mathematics "innovation" is simply copied from India. Since, Europe found those through arabs, they were named as "arab" innovation. If they were so advanced 1000s of years ago, how come there is no one coming out of it now?
    - mcantelon 14y ago
      Adopting your line of thinking: if India, as you claim, is the originator of all this knowledge why is it not the current global leader of science and tech?
      - anon2012_786 14y ago
        That is good question. While indians are excelling in science and tech, India itself is not a leader in science and tech. India was never industrialized, So, even if innovation occurs, it never becomes part of the industrial-government machinery. That is the reason, I believe, indians who are interested in innovation, leave india. India as a nation is very young. Even, the concept of india is very young. The only connecting fabric underlying india is its spiritually, beliefs and traditions ( Hindu/Vedic traditions ). Their lifestyle is very different from industrialized west or terror based middle east. India itself has two major kinds of people, city folks who are westernized and rural folks who are relatively non-westernized. depending on who you talk, you may get a different answer. Anyway, this is great question. You should visit india to find it by yourself. It will be a journey worth taken. :)

w1ntermute 14y ago

> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long & hard battle, one that may not be won for quite a while. > Here's a nice summary of arab contributions to mathematics. I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist.

mcantelon 14y ago
>There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long & hard battle, one that may not be won for quite a while. I'm guessing/hoping that Big Oil will be killed by grassroots innovation, open hardware designs that don't have companies behind them that can be bought out and their patented tech buried. If it's simply a matter of spending money or killing a few people to keep the gravy train going, they'll do it. >I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist. True.
randomchars 14y ago
> I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist. No math = No modern world. Got it?
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  No, you're the one that still doesn't get it. Who invented algebra 1000 years ago is entirely irrelevant to modern geopolitics.
  - randomchars 14y ago
    It's not irrelevant. Without math we wouldn't have a modern society. But if you insist that it's irrelevant than Arabs being desert nomads is irrelevant to modern geopolitics too.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      Once again, my point flies right over your head. > It's not irrelevant. Without math we wouldn't have a modern society. Correct, but who made those discoveries has no relevance to modern geopolitical strategy. > But if you insist that it's irrelevant than Arabs being desert nomads is irrelevant to modern geopolitics too. I already stated how that fact is relevant, but you chose to ignore it. If the Arabs weren't desert nomads, they might be a credible threat to the US even without oil. It seems that everyone here is taking offense at the fact that I called Arabs "desert nomads". The point I was trying to make is that without oil, the Arabs don't pose a threat to America.
Volpe 14y ago
I'm amazed at the hubris shown towards a civilisation that has existed far longer than your own. Please reflect more on this. Your "solution" to this problem is just to oversimplify everything and solve these simple problems. A clear flag, that you lack the education to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > I'm amazed at the hubris shown towards a civilisation that has existed far longer than your own. I don't understand why the age of a civilization should be a matter of pride. This is an entirely arbitrary point of distinction and has no real relevance to the conversation at hand. > Your "solution" to this problem is just to oversimplify everything and solve these simple problems. A clear flag, that you lack the education to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion. And your inability to literal make any meaningful statements other than ad hominem attacks against me suggests that you need to go back to high school and study logic and debate.
  - Volpe 14y ago
    > I don't understand why the age of a civilization should be a matter of pride. This is an entirely arbitrary point of distinction and has no real relevance to the conversation at hand. > And your inability to literal make any meaningful statements other than ad hominem attacks against me suggests that you need to go back to high school and study logic and debate. It is arrogant to assume a single countries path is correct vs a much older civilisation, given that single country has not stood the same test of time. It was not intended as an ad hominem. Only that a meaningful debate could only be made with you, were you open to learning the full history and reasons behind the current problems. After reading your comments so far it is apparent you aren't open to learning these things. I'm sorry if you took offense.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > It is arrogant to assume a single countries path is correct vs a much older civilisation, given that single country has not stood the same test of time. Once again, the point flew over your head. This has nothing to do with correctness, it has to do with maintaining America's global hegemony. And Arab "civilization" is a tenuous concept. Many modern Arab countries didn't exist until less than a century ago. Given the horrific exploitation the Arab peoples suffered at the hands of Europeans, I'd say that their countries haven't withstood the test of time very well. > Only that a meaningful debate could only be made with you, were you open to learning the full history and reasons behind the current problems. After reading your comments so far it is apparent you aren't open to learning these things. The only thing that's apparent is that you're completely misunderstanding the purpose of my initial comment. It wasn't intended as a normative dismissal of Arab or Muslim culture, it was intended to be a suggested improvement of America's geopolitical current strategy.
patrickk 14y ago
> I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. Math is timeless unless it's mistaken. ...there’s an alternative math metaphor we might use: calculus. The calculus metaphor asks whether and how we can figure out exactly what’s going to happen. Take NASA and the Apollo missions, for instance. You have to figure out where the moon is going to be, exactly. You have to plan whether a rocket has enough fuel to reach it. And so on. The point is that no one would want to ride in a statistically, probabilistically-informed spaceship. http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1 http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1 The origins of calculus can be traced to ancient times. Moon rockets. Let that sink in. Elon Musk and anyone else who pushes that envelope must stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before him, including Arabic mathematicians (indirectly). What about mathematics that are thousands of years old, i.e. geometry from the ancient Greeks? Buildings with architecture based on the golden ratio[1] are aesthetically very pleasing, e.g. Georgian architecture[2]. Far nicer and better proportioned than most of the shit that's hastily thrown up all over the world today. Every time you fire up your computer, you're taking advantage of boolean algebra[3], first laid down in the 1850s by George Boole, which is critical to modern computer science. Mathematical contributions from hundreds of years ago has an incredible amount of relevance to the modern world, in countless different ways. I wish I knew more about the history of mathematics to counter you more forcefully. I would also urge you to read this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Civilization-Killer-Apps-Western-Power/dp/0141044586 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Civilization-Killer-Apps-Western-Pow... It shows how that in the 15th century, Europe was a shithole backwater, plagued by diseases and wars, and other civilisations like the Chinese and Arabic ones were far more advanced. By various accidents of history, the western world dominated the rest over the next 500 years. Some would argue that the wests' power is currently on the wane, and China is rising again. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_architecture [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra

snambi 14y ago

while talking about mathematics, please include this as well. Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 History may paint a different picture, but essentially its terrorism in its true form.

mcantelon 14y ago
Does Muslim violence negate arab achievement in mathematics? If so, does the US killing of native Americans negate US scientific achievement?
- snambi 14y ago
  btw, many of the arab mathematics "innovation" is simply copied from India. Since, Europe found those through arabs, they were named as "arab" innovation. If they were so advanced 1000s of years ago, how come there is no one coming out of it now?
  - mcantelon 14y ago
    Adopting your line of thinking: if India, as you claim, is the originator of all this knowledge why is it not the current global leader of science and tech?
    - anon2012_786 14y ago
      That is good question. While indians are excelling in science and tech, India itself is not a leader in science and tech. India was never industrialized, So, even if innovation occurs, it never becomes part of the industrial-government machinery. That is the reason, I believe, indians who are interested in innovation, leave india. India as a nation is very young. Even, the concept of india is very young. The only connecting fabric underlying india is its spiritually, beliefs and traditions ( Hindu/Vedic traditions ). Their lifestyle is very different from industrialized west or terror based middle east. India itself has two major kinds of people, city folks who are westernized and rural folks who are relatively non-westernized. depending on who you talk, you may get a different answer. Anyway, this is great question. You should visit india to find it by yourself. It will be a journey worth taken. :)