6 ms·

Quick question, do you actually think it is the 'militant' or the 'islam' that scares the west? And once you figure out the (right) answer to that question, pl

by milfot 14y ago

Quick question, do you actually think it is the 'militant' or the 'islam' that scares the west? And once you figure out the (right) answer to that question, please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. The real lesson here is what better way to mobilise a generation of a nation into militancy than occupy their country, sell off their assets, kill 5% of the population and then insult their religion.

spindritf 14y ago
> please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. No need to rewrite anything, it's both their hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis for one of the most important texts in the European culture — The Song of Roland. EDIT: I do know what you mean and I'm sorry but those are just feel-good platitudes. West quite obviously is not afraid of militant Christians or atheists. Mostly because there aren't really any left, and those who still hang around don't regularly erupt in violence, but also because they're much more like us and it's easier for us to understand their particular extremism.
- milfot 14y ago
  The hostility and philosophical differences of muslims or militants? I think you also misunderstand. Militants are a small subset of society which also includes some muslims, some christians, hindus, atheists etc. Point is, vast majority of muslims are peaceful, just the same as christians or atheists.
- milfot 14y ago
  At this risk of getting this all out of order (since you edited rather than replying).. The west is RUN by militant christians (and militant jews and militant atheists etc). They use armies to inflict their particular brand of extremism. They killed about a million iraquis. They murder people in cold blood by dropping missiles from drones from 50,000 ft up. Pretty fucking extreme if you ask me.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    Could you please show us the militant Jews and atheists running the West?
    - milfot 14y ago
      Yeah, you got me there, I actually have no idea.. I just assumed there would be some people with other beliefs in the armed forces in US, UK, Israel, Australia (ie. the west).
      - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
        I'd bet the UK and Australia have atheists in their armed forces, but they don't run the world. I've met militant Jews in Israel's armed forces, but they don't run the world either. The United States runs the world, but has a heavily Protestant tilt.
        milfot 14y ago
        Fair cop.. I was just trying to be inclusive ;) Point I was trying to make is the militancy is an end in itself and the belief structures are simply bent to serve it.. in refutation of the idea that militancy in the muslim world is peculiarly religious. They find religious justifications for operational killings in order not to abandon their religion, not because their religion demands it. US forces just abandon religion when it suits them and call themselves a secular nation. The British made themselves a whole new religion answerable to the head of state. These are all just ways of twisting religion to serve power.
  - kenbot 14y ago
    This is a commonly made argument, but it's silly. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were declared by the secular government of a secular state for geopolitical reasons. Most of the individuals are Christian, but the war and tactics have nothing whatsoever to do with Christian doctrine or motivations. The "Muslim militants" under discussion launch attacks for specifically Muslim motives, with carefully constructed justifications cross-referenced to precise verses from the Koran and Hadiths.
- aaronbrethorst 14y ago
  > there aren't really any left http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA) http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/342577631.html?dids=342577631:342577631&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+02%2C+2003&author=Alan+Cooperman&pub=The+Washington+Post&desc=Is+Terrorism+Tied+To+Christian+Sect%3F%3B+Religion+May+Have+Motivated+Bombing+Suspect&pqatl=google http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/342577631.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-green-phd/anders-behring-breivik-christian-terrorism_b_908163.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-green-phd/anders-behring-... http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/6263/christian_terrorism_comes_to_milwaukee/ http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/...
- ucee054 14y ago
  hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis The Wikipedia entry for "Song of Roland" ends with the actions of Roland's avengers: "The traitor is torn limb from limb by galloping horses and thirty of his relatives are hung for good measure." What differences in philosophy and hostility were you referring to again?
- Evbn 14y ago
  The US spent 2001-2009 terrorized by militant Christians.
coolestuk 14y ago
Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation, the mass slaughter of the males who fought or would not convert, the looting of property and the selling off into slavery of their women and children. This was all based on emulating the behaviour of Mohammed (known as sunnah in islamic practice); Mohammed took 20% of the spoils from his army of warriors. (Some describe him as the profit of 20% because of this). This can be verified in The Life of Mohammed, the first biography of Mohammed (and written by a muslim 100 years after the death of Mohammed). The author, Ibn Ishaq, was a christian who was taken as a slave to Medina, and converted to islam for a better life (one of the inducements used in the spread of islam). The real lesson is that christianity endured 300 years of this aggression, before Pope Urban made christianity do an about turn, and began the (very minimal) Crusades against islam. They were a failure, and islamic violence against European christendom continued until the Siege of Vienna (when Jan Sobieski defeated the muslim army on September 11, 1683). Watch just 1 minute of this video to see what happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WPwZ7MC3YPU#t=731s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... The muslim attack against Europe continued beyond this. The white slave trade continued for hundreds of years (it was stopped by a joint British/US naval bombardment of Algeria in 1815). In 1951 the UN report on slavery calculated that 5% of the population of Saudi Arabia and Yemen were still slaves. Buddhism did not respond in the same way as christianity to islamic aggression. Many experts on the history of buddhism say that buddhism died about 1000 years ago (e.g. Conze). And they explicitly attribute this death of buddhism to the onslaught of the islamic invasion & destruction in India. The real lesson is that some religions are actually militant political movements wrapped up in religion. Islam is one such religion. Islamic militancy was going on for hundreds of years before christianity responded in kind.
- milfot 14y ago
  "Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation." This is just plain bullshit! The introduction of islam to much of the world was through trade, just the same as the christians. And if you take slavery, trade and military occupations to be evidence that "The real lesson is that some religions are actually militant political movements wrapped up in religion." then I am afraid you will have to say the same of christianity. Once again, the point is that extremists / militants use religion (or any other reason) to justify occupation, oppression and murder. To fight militant-ism you have to do just two things. 1.resist. 2.not become one. ps: were you serious about that video you linked? seems like dumb paranoid aryan propaganda to me..

by milfot 14y ago

spindritf 14y ago

> please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. No need to rewrite anything, it's both their hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis for one of the most important texts in the European culture — The Song of Roland. EDIT: I do know what you mean and I'm sorry but those are just feel-good platitudes. West quite obviously is not afraid of militant Christians or atheists. Mostly because there aren't really any left, and those who still hang around don't regularly erupt in violence, but also because they're much more like us and it's easier for us to understand their particular extremism.

milfot 14y ago
The hostility and philosophical differences of muslims or militants? I think you also misunderstand. Militants are a small subset of society which also includes some muslims, some christians, hindus, atheists etc. Point is, vast majority of muslims are peaceful, just the same as christians or atheists.
milfot 14y ago
At this risk of getting this all out of order (since you edited rather than replying).. The west is RUN by militant christians (and militant jews and militant atheists etc). They use armies to inflict their particular brand of extremism. They killed about a million iraquis. They murder people in cold blood by dropping missiles from drones from 50,000 ft up. Pretty fucking extreme if you ask me.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Could you please show us the militant Jews and atheists running the West?
  - milfot 14y ago
    Yeah, you got me there, I actually have no idea.. I just assumed there would be some people with other beliefs in the armed forces in US, UK, Israel, Australia (ie. the west).
    - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
      I'd bet the UK and Australia have atheists in their armed forces, but they don't run the world. I've met militant Jews in Israel's armed forces, but they don't run the world either. The United States runs the world, but has a heavily Protestant tilt.
      - milfot 14y ago
        Fair cop.. I was just trying to be inclusive ;) Point I was trying to make is the militancy is an end in itself and the belief structures are simply bent to serve it.. in refutation of the idea that militancy in the muslim world is peculiarly religious. They find religious justifications for operational killings in order not to abandon their religion, not because their religion demands it. US forces just abandon religion when it suits them and call themselves a secular nation. The British made themselves a whole new religion answerable to the head of state. These are all just ways of twisting religion to serve power.
- kenbot 14y ago
  This is a commonly made argument, but it's silly. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were declared by the secular government of a secular state for geopolitical reasons. Most of the individuals are Christian, but the war and tactics have nothing whatsoever to do with Christian doctrine or motivations. The "Muslim militants" under discussion launch attacks for specifically Muslim motives, with carefully constructed justifications cross-referenced to precise verses from the Koran and Hadiths.
aaronbrethorst 14y ago
> there aren't really any left http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA) http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/342577631.html?dids=342577631:342577631&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+02%2C+2003&author=Alan+Cooperman&pub=The+Washington+Post&desc=Is+Terrorism+Tied+To+Christian+Sect%3F%3B+Religion+May+Have+Motivated+Bombing+Suspect&pqatl=google http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/342577631.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-green-phd/anders-behring-breivik-christian-terrorism_b_908163.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-green-phd/anders-behring-... http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/6263/christian_terrorism_comes_to_milwaukee/ http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/...
ucee054 14y ago
hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis The Wikipedia entry for "Song of Roland" ends with the actions of Roland's avengers: "The traitor is torn limb from limb by galloping horses and thirty of his relatives are hung for good measure." What differences in philosophy and hostility were you referring to again?
Evbn 14y ago
The US spent 2001-2009 terrorized by militant Christians.

coolestuk 14y ago

Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation, the mass slaughter of the males who fought or would not convert, the looting of property and the selling off into slavery of their women and children. This was all based on emulating the behaviour of Mohammed (known as sunnah in islamic practice); Mohammed took 20% of the spoils from his army of warriors. (Some describe him as the profit of 20% because of this). This can be verified in The Life of Mohammed, the first biography of Mohammed (and written by a muslim 100 years after the death of Mohammed). The author, Ibn Ishaq, was a christian who was taken as a slave to Medina, and converted to islam for a better life (one of the inducements used in the spread of islam). The real lesson is that christianity endured 300 years of this aggression, before Pope Urban made christianity do an about turn, and began the (very minimal) Crusades against islam. They were a failure, and islamic violence against European christendom continued until the Siege of Vienna (when Jan Sobieski defeated the muslim army on September 11, 1683). Watch just 1 minute of this video to see what happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WPwZ7MC3YPU#t=731s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... The muslim attack against Europe continued beyond this. The white slave trade continued for hundreds of years (it was stopped by a joint British/US naval bombardment of Algeria in 1815). In 1951 the UN report on slavery calculated that 5% of the population of Saudi Arabia and Yemen were still slaves. Buddhism did not respond in the same way as christianity to islamic aggression. Many experts on the history of buddhism say that buddhism died about 1000 years ago (e.g. Conze). And they explicitly attribute this death of buddhism to the onslaught of the islamic invasion & destruction in India. The real lesson is that some religions are actually militant political movements wrapped up in religion. Islam is one such religion. Islamic militancy was going on for hundreds of years before christianity responded in kind.

milfot 14y ago
"Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation." This is just plain bullshit! The introduction of islam to much of the world was through trade, just the same as the christians. And if you take slavery, trade and military occupations to be evidence that "The real lesson is that some religions are actually militant political movements wrapped up in religion." then I am afraid you will have to say the same of christianity. Once again, the point is that extremists / militants use religion (or any other reason) to justify occupation, oppression and murder. To fight militant-ism you have to do just two things. 1.resist. 2.not become one. ps: were you serious about that video you linked? seems like dumb paranoid aryan propaganda to me..