4 ms·

Wonder what Apple caved on. They famously only found goldman to work with them originally because they had significant demands that bucked the industry, includi

Wonder what Apple caved on. They famously only found goldman to work with them originally because they had significant demands that bucked the industry, including setting everyone's statement dates to the exact same so that customer support collapses the same day every year.

Tempest1981 9mo ago
Searching online, another difference is no late fees for missed payments, only interest, while Chase's late fee is $40. Will that change?
petesergeant 9mo ago
Does it have to be Apple that caved?
- killingtime74 9mo ago
  Banks were not queuing up to do it the first time and it didn't work out well for the bank that did (Goldman). Who else is compromising
  - sethhochberg 9mo ago
    I have no insider knowledge here but it doesn't seem outlandish to think that the negotiations would go a little differently for an established product vs a brand new one. Goldman may have simply been the only bank willing to work with Apple when the customer base (in size, demographics, spending patterns, whatever) was hypothetical.
    - adrr 9mo ago
      What bank offers rewards and no fees to subprime(below 660) customers? There aren't any. Why no wanted the deal. Guaranteed to lose money. Its not like there's name recognition, i doubt most people could name the underlying bank for the Apple Card. Only place the bank is mentioned is the fine print at the bottom of the card details. Everything is branded "Apple Card"
      - LoganDark 9mo ago
        > i doubt most people could name the underlying bank for the Apple Card. Only place the bank is mentioned is the fine print at the bottom of the card details. And in the bottom-right corner of the titanium card and in the picture in Wallet. And it's advertised practically everywhere they mention the titanium card. And if you have Apple Savings it's also specified to be from GS everywhere.
    - LoganDark 9mo ago
      GS was inexperienced and didn't know what they were getting into; that's why Apple was able to get such a good deal and also why GS now wants out. I fear Chase does know what they're getting into and Apple likely has far less favorable terms now. Though I'm incredibly glad they didn't give it to Synchrony (who runs PayPal and is incredibly sociopathic)
  - ksec 9mo ago
    I would imagine Goldman want out. They were never a retail banking firm to begin with. And sell the current Apple Card division with debt and customer base packaged at a discount. Consider the transition takes 24 months I wouldn't be surprised if the discount allow them to run three years with clause to terminate at later date. The downside and exposure should be limited with great upside on worldwide launch. But judging from Apple's speed with their execution in Apple Wallet this will likely take a lot longer than expected.
    - smsm42 9mo ago
      Yeah I was surprised finding out it's Goldman card - I haven't heard about Goldman doing a consumer cards before that (and I have a lot of cards).
      - ksec 9mo ago
        I mean I dont fault Goldman for doing it, if they really want to venture into consumer sector there is no better partner than Apple to do it. But the execution has been absolutely appalling.
- monster_truck 9mo ago
  Absolutely. I'd imagine not being able to use the card at Costco alone would be enough to have them entertaining surprising concessions. It was the first thing I thought of, with Chase CC's being Visa instead of Mastercard.
  - iancarroll 9mo ago
    Chase issues cards on both the Visa and Mastercard network (i.e. certain cobrands and the Freedom Flex), so I doubt this was a serious consideration.
- adrr 9mo ago
  Why would a bank chose to lose billions of dollars?
- pdpi 9mo ago
  Not sure which way this tips the scales, but Chase has a retail banking presence in the UK, GS doesn't. If Apple wants to expand Apple Card internationally, and want to keep the number of partners to a minimum, Chase would be a better fit. Inversely, Chase's market in the UK is still small, and an Apple Card partnership would be a big draw to pull customers in.
  - wt__ 9mo ago
    (UK reader here too). You could well be right, though I have a couple of theories why they Apple haven't rolled it out here: - maybe they think it'll just be too messy, having to market different cashback reward rates and so on for the US and UK, due to the capped interchange fees - too much "it's not fair" style moaning like everyone did about Black Friday, even though we don't even celebrate Thanksgiving here. - Apple have somewhat de-prioritised UK/Europe generally given their dealings with the EU - (as others have hinted) most banks simply aren't interested From the outside it does seem as though there was basically nothing in it for Goldman Sachs, other than perhaps useful spending data (they must surely have got some data, regardless of Apple's privacy claims) and a bit of industry prestige for being the ones to work with Apple?
MarkMarine 9mo ago
Settling on the same day is quite a choice. PDF creation cluster scaling alone must have been something else, let alone the obvious problems they had knocking over CS and getting fined by the CFPB.
- the8472 9mo ago
  This guy manages 35ms per pdf https://www.ersteiger.com/posts/rendering-one-million-pdfs/#results https://www.ersteiger.com/posts/rendering-one-million-pdfs/#...
- lxgr 9mo ago
  I doubt that PDF generation makes any dent given all the other things they have to process at statement closing. They also don’t mail out statements by default and I don’t think everyone looks at the PDFs on the first day, so they can do it just in time.
samename 9mo ago
They also kept transaction data more private than other cards. Hopefully they’ve kept that
adrr 9mo ago
I would guess putting a cap of 660 credit score and adding some fees back like late fee, over limit fee, and return payment fee. I don't see JPM doing a card with rewards/cash back in the sub prime market, slate doesn't have any rewards. Apple card with GS was amazing deal for people who didn't have prime credit.
- nrb 9mo ago
  Some of the perks were great even for prime if you're already bought into the Apple ecosystem. 3% cash back plus 0% APR installment on Apple product purchases is a nice double dip that most cards can't touch unless you're really trying hard.
  - adrr 9mo ago
    If you don't want to mess with points, its a great card. You still need another card for travel since it doesn't have rental car insurance, travel insurance, etc. Its missing all the features that normally come with Visa Infinite or Mastercard World Elite cards.
jldugger 9mo ago
> so that customer support collapses the same day every year. Every _month_. And it's not just the customer service desk that's a problem. With even distribution of billing and a large customer base, outflows match inflows and you don't have to do much to manage it. With all money coming in on one day you have a huge outflow of money and then it all rushes back in. Much easier to borrow 1 dollar for a year than 30 dollars for a month.

Tempest1981 9mo ago

Searching online, another difference is no late fees for missed payments, only interest, while Chase's late fee is $40. Will that change?

petesergeant 9mo ago

Does it have to be Apple that caved?

killingtime74 9mo ago
Banks were not queuing up to do it the first time and it didn't work out well for the bank that did (Goldman). Who else is compromising
- sethhochberg 9mo ago
  I have no insider knowledge here but it doesn't seem outlandish to think that the negotiations would go a little differently for an established product vs a brand new one. Goldman may have simply been the only bank willing to work with Apple when the customer base (in size, demographics, spending patterns, whatever) was hypothetical.
  - adrr 9mo ago
    What bank offers rewards and no fees to subprime(below 660) customers? There aren't any. Why no wanted the deal. Guaranteed to lose money. Its not like there's name recognition, i doubt most people could name the underlying bank for the Apple Card. Only place the bank is mentioned is the fine print at the bottom of the card details. Everything is branded "Apple Card"
    - LoganDark 9mo ago
      > i doubt most people could name the underlying bank for the Apple Card. Only place the bank is mentioned is the fine print at the bottom of the card details. And in the bottom-right corner of the titanium card and in the picture in Wallet. And it's advertised practically everywhere they mention the titanium card. And if you have Apple Savings it's also specified to be from GS everywhere.
  - LoganDark 9mo ago
    GS was inexperienced and didn't know what they were getting into; that's why Apple was able to get such a good deal and also why GS now wants out. I fear Chase does know what they're getting into and Apple likely has far less favorable terms now. Though I'm incredibly glad they didn't give it to Synchrony (who runs PayPal and is incredibly sociopathic)
- ksec 9mo ago
  I would imagine Goldman want out. They were never a retail banking firm to begin with. And sell the current Apple Card division with debt and customer base packaged at a discount. Consider the transition takes 24 months I wouldn't be surprised if the discount allow them to run three years with clause to terminate at later date. The downside and exposure should be limited with great upside on worldwide launch. But judging from Apple's speed with their execution in Apple Wallet this will likely take a lot longer than expected.
  - smsm42 9mo ago
    Yeah I was surprised finding out it's Goldman card - I haven't heard about Goldman doing a consumer cards before that (and I have a lot of cards).
    - ksec 9mo ago
      I mean I dont fault Goldman for doing it, if they really want to venture into consumer sector there is no better partner than Apple to do it. But the execution has been absolutely appalling.
monster_truck 9mo ago
Absolutely. I'd imagine not being able to use the card at Costco alone would be enough to have them entertaining surprising concessions. It was the first thing I thought of, with Chase CC's being Visa instead of Mastercard.
- iancarroll 9mo ago
  Chase issues cards on both the Visa and Mastercard network (i.e. certain cobrands and the Freedom Flex), so I doubt this was a serious consideration.
adrr 9mo ago
Why would a bank chose to lose billions of dollars?
pdpi 9mo ago
Not sure which way this tips the scales, but Chase has a retail banking presence in the UK, GS doesn't. If Apple wants to expand Apple Card internationally, and want to keep the number of partners to a minimum, Chase would be a better fit. Inversely, Chase's market in the UK is still small, and an Apple Card partnership would be a big draw to pull customers in.
- wt__ 9mo ago
  (UK reader here too). You could well be right, though I have a couple of theories why they Apple haven't rolled it out here: - maybe they think it'll just be too messy, having to market different cashback reward rates and so on for the US and UK, due to the capped interchange fees - too much "it's not fair" style moaning like everyone did about Black Friday, even though we don't even celebrate Thanksgiving here. - Apple have somewhat de-prioritised UK/Europe generally given their dealings with the EU - (as others have hinted) most banks simply aren't interested From the outside it does seem as though there was basically nothing in it for Goldman Sachs, other than perhaps useful spending data (they must surely have got some data, regardless of Apple's privacy claims) and a bit of industry prestige for being the ones to work with Apple?

MarkMarine 9mo ago

Settling on the same day is quite a choice. PDF creation cluster scaling alone must have been something else, let alone the obvious problems they had knocking over CS and getting fined by the CFPB.

the8472 9mo ago
This guy manages 35ms per pdf https://www.ersteiger.com/posts/rendering-one-million-pdfs/#results https://www.ersteiger.com/posts/rendering-one-million-pdfs/#...
lxgr 9mo ago
I doubt that PDF generation makes any dent given all the other things they have to process at statement closing. They also don’t mail out statements by default and I don’t think everyone looks at the PDFs on the first day, so they can do it just in time.

samename 9mo ago

They also kept transaction data more private than other cards. Hopefully they’ve kept that

adrr 9mo ago

I would guess putting a cap of 660 credit score and adding some fees back like late fee, over limit fee, and return payment fee. I don't see JPM doing a card with rewards/cash back in the sub prime market, slate doesn't have any rewards. Apple card with GS was amazing deal for people who didn't have prime credit.

nrb 9mo ago
Some of the perks were great even for prime if you're already bought into the Apple ecosystem. 3% cash back plus 0% APR installment on Apple product purchases is a nice double dip that most cards can't touch unless you're really trying hard.
- adrr 9mo ago
  If you don't want to mess with points, its a great card. You still need another card for travel since it doesn't have rental car insurance, travel insurance, etc. Its missing all the features that normally come with Visa Infinite or Mastercard World Elite cards.

jldugger 9mo ago

> so that customer support collapses the same day every year. Every _month_. And it's not just the customer service desk that's a problem. With even distribution of billing and a large customer base, outflows match inflows and you don't have to do much to manage it. With all money coming in on one day you have a huge outflow of money and then it all rushes back in. Much easier to borrow 1 dollar for a year than 30 dollars for a month.