6 ms·

Is it? The change in recommendation is to have less veggies in favor of more meat. From all the recent research and meta studies I've seen it doesn't track. It

by didibus 9mo ago

Is it? The change in recommendation is to have less veggies in favor of more meat. From all the recent research and meta studies I've seen it doesn't track. It's still decent a guidance, but the previous one was as well.

hallole 9mo ago
The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy. The ordering here is purposeful, too, as they admit. One promo graphic includes a block of butter and a carton explicitly labelled "whole milk." This is a very definite downgrade.
- keleftheriou 9mo ago
  Why is that a downgrade?
  - smaudet 9mo ago
    Dairy/Meat are both inflammatory and overconsumption contributes to a whole host of medical disease. Some protein is obviously desirable, but the ratios, like anything else in chemistry/biology, are paramount. I don't think the USA has a problem with under consumption of meat and dairy. If anything, it has a long standing overconsumption problem.
    - toxik 9mo ago
      The relationship between dairy/meat and inflammation is more nuanced than that. While some studies show associations with inflammatory markers, others find neutral or even anti-inflammatory effects depending on the type (e.g., grass-fed vs grain-fed, fermented vs non-fermented dairy) and individual metabolic context. You're right that ratios matter enormously, but optimal ratios vary significantly by individual - genetics, activity level, metabolic health, and existing conditions all play roles. The overconsumption concern is valid for processed meats and in the context of sedentary lifestyles with excess calories, but the picture is less clear for whole-food animal proteins in balanced diets. The real issue might be less about meat/dairy per se and more about displacement of other beneficial foods (fiber, polyphenols, etc) and overall dietary patterns. Many Americans do overconsume calories generally, but some subpopulations (elderly, athletes, those on restricted diets) may actually benefit from more protein.
    - genewitch 9mo ago
      why is meat inflammatory? is it they way it's farmed/raised? because we have teeth specifically designed to get meat off bones and animals that don't eat meat and weren't "designed to" don't have teeth designed to clean meat off bones. and that's just one i came up with, off the cuff. if it's current farming practices that make the meat/dairy bad for us, then fix that. But i don't currently believe there's a greater health benefit to taking a ton of supplements to replace the missing nutrients that meat and dairy give us that you absolutely cannot get from vegan diets without it becoming a monotonous pain in the neck.
      - GenBiot 9mo ago
        I think they mean in the sense of pro-inflammatory. Which it very much is (especially red meat).
      - donbrae 9mo ago
        You can get all the nutrients you need, easily, from a vegan diet, with the exception of B12 (a cheap supplement will cover that). Also, human ‘canines’ are pretty pathetic. They’ll do the job in getting meat off bones, sure, but are nothing compared with my dog’s teeth – he has proper canines. (He also doesn’t have to prepare and cook meat before tucking in. Humans are actually pretty lame meat eaters even in comparison to other omnivores like dogs, let alone carnivores like lions.)
        genewitch 9mo ago
        vitamin D? unless you live within 10 degrees of the equator "the sun" is not a valid answer. The most available form of vitamin D comes from extracting the oil from sheep's wool/skin using chemicals (soap is a chemical, for the record.) Yes, it is possible to get a much weaker form of D from mushrooms, but not as they arrive, regardless of packaging. they have to be left outside in the sun for at least 8 hours, but ideally "two full days in the sun", cap-side up (facing the sun), and then a standard mushroom will have enough D2 for the average adult, maybe. I don't know the specific conversion from D2 to calciferol or whatever. And before anyone decides to cite 30ng/ml or whatever as "recommended", i disagree, 90-105ng/ml is more "ideal" and 500IU of vitamin D supplements aren't going to cut it. it's 1 IU per 10 grams of body mass (roughly). i can do this all day, it's a waste of both of our time. As lovely as vegetarian/veganism is in the abstract, the entire planet cannot be vegan any more than the entire planet can subsist off insects.
    - ChrisGreenHeur 9mo ago
      That explains the great olympic track record of India.
      - didibus 9mo ago
        I think generally people are optimizing for health outcome and longevity, not peak athletic performance at your prime age. But also, I've seen people often assume vegetarian or vegan diets are "healthy". But many people in India for example will still eat a lot of refined carbs, added sugars, fat heavy deep fried foods, large volumes of ghee or seed oils, etc. And total avoidance of animal products can also mean you have some deficiencies in nutrients that can be hard to obtain otherwise. A plant-forward diet is more specific, like the Mediterranean diet, which itself isn't at all how your average Mediterranean person eats haha. But it involves no processed foods, no added sugar or excessive sugar, diverse set of nutrients by eating a balance of veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, meats, dairy, fish, and so on all in appropriate proportions, as well as keeping overall caloric intake relatively low. It's quite hard to eat that way to be honest haha.
  - yehat 9mo ago
    [flagged]
  - hallole 9mo ago
    Meat and dairy contain the bulk of the saturated fat in the average diet. It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy, but due to the ordering, that almost seems to be implied. The saturated fat → LDL-C → heart disease relationship has a lot of evidence and history behind it. A very interesting research project if you needed one. I call this advisory a "downgrade" because heart attack and stroke (among other conditions) are both: 1) downstream of saturated fat consumption, and 2) the most prevalent causes of death among people in the developed world.
    - cogman10 9mo ago
      It also very prominently shows red meat, which is the worst you can do. fish > poultry > red meat. (Fish and poultry can be swapped, mercury is a real problem). But really if you are looking for the healthiest proteins then you really can't do much better than nuts and beans. Red meat beyond having a lot of links to heart disease is also linked to cancer. It should be seen as a treat, not the main thing you should be consuming.
    - Amezarak 9mo ago
      > It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy There's nothing absurd about this at all, this is my diet and my LDL numbers are great.
      - hallole 9mo ago
        That's unhealthy and honestly gross. Maybe you have the genes -- there are smokers who make it to 100! -- but you should adjust your diet for your own sake. I wouldn't bet on being an outlier.
        Amezarak 9mo ago
        I don’t believe there is any solid scientific reason to change my diet. Indeed I’d say there is mild evidence otherwise. I think the main issue is being turning this into a moralizing issue.
    - 9mo ago
- ANarrativeApe 9mo ago
  "The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy." that's because the pyramid is presented pointy end down.
- cmoski 9mo ago
  Butter is king. It should be pictured with a crown, stars and glitter. Surely whole milk is better than less-than-whole milk?
- tomp 9mo ago
  You're literally just lying. The first thing shown on the website is - broccoli. The top of the pyramid includes both protein (meat, cheese) as well as fruits & vegetables. The reason that meat is shown first is probably that it's the bigger change (it's been demonized in previous versions), whereas vegetables were always prominent.
  - simiones 9mo ago
    The first thing on the website is indeed broccoli. But the first thing in the new inverted pyramid, both on the website and in other graphics of it, is meat. In fact, on the website, when you first get to "The New Pyramid", you'll first see only the left half, the one that has meat and other proteins; you'll have to scroll more to see the right half with vegetables and fruit.
    - galangalalgol 9mo ago
      I don't think it is meant to read left to right but top to bottom. Chicken and broccoli are top center, and that is the standard weight lifter meal plan. That said, human dietary needs vary individually by far more than any lobbied leaders will ever communicate.
      - hallole 9mo ago
        The website is animated, so there's no question of which direction to read in, the left side literally pops up first lol. I can't lie, I miss websites that stood still, this could've just been a PDF. BTW, you say "lobbied leaders" -- if you're talking about the scientists who have their names on this report, you'd be very correct. The "conflicting interests" section has loads of references to the cattle and dairy industries.
  - didibus 9mo ago
    The only difference from the previous guidance is that it's suggesting eating more meat and dairy, which would come at the expense of veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds. To be honest, I don't totally disagree from a practical angle. I think we have to acknowledge that most Americans failed to eat large portions of non-processed veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds. The next best thing might be to tell them, ok, at least if you're going to eat meat and dairy in large portions, make sure it's non-processed. I've found for myself, it's hard to eat perfectly, but it's easier to replace processed foods and added sugar with simpler whole meats, fish and healthy fats like avocado, eggs, etc. And since those have higher satiety it helps with calorie control and so you avoid eating more snacks and treats which are heavily processed and sugary. That said, in a purely evidence based health sense, it's not as good as the prior ratios from what I've seen of the research.
kristopolous 9mo ago
And that's going to dictate nationwide purchasing policies for things the the 30 million school lunch meals, million prisoners... This is worth millions of dollars a day and we're sold it as common wisdom from the mom and pop country doctor.
- troupo 9mo ago
  Kids in the US will no longer be served reheated pizza and chocolate milk? Whatever the incentives, go for it
  - genewitch 9mo ago
    the rectangular pizzas were never "reheated". i have copies of the recipe cards to make enough trays of pizza to feed a school using the industrial kitchen appliances they have in schools. and whatever your issue is with chocolate milk, can you link a recent survey that shows the percentage of say, americans, that have had 1 or more glasses of water in the last month? a glass being at least 8floz (1/4 liter or so) i'm leaning toward "most people don't drink enough, if any, water; furthermore most people are probably varying levels of dehydrated", at least in the US. The fad of carrying water with you everywhere was lambasted into obscurity, at least in the american south. Anecdotally, many people have told me they drink 64 ounces a day, because diet coke counts and so does beer. that a kid is getting a fortified delicious drink they enjoy is fine by me.
    - troupo 9mo ago
      In a lot of schools "industrial equipment" is used to reheat frozen foods. As for chicolate milk: there's probably as much added sugar in it as in a can of Cola. Definitely not something kids should consume daily.
      - astura 9mo ago
        >As for chicolate milk: there's probably as much added sugar in it as in a can of Cola There's no way this is true, so I looked up nutrition facts- A 12oz can of coke has 39g added sugars and chocolate milk has 6 grams added sugars for the small cartons they have at schools. This is the first chocolate milk I found - https://www.kleinpeterdairy.com/products/fresh-delicious-milk/low-fat-chocolate-milk/half-pint-carton https://www.kleinpeterdairy.com/products/fresh-delicious-mil... In other words, coke has more than six times the added sugar as chocolate milk in containers that they are readily available in. Btw, Mountain Dew has 46 grams sugar per can.
spaceman_2020 9mo ago
And here in largely vegetarian India, everyone is now pushing for more protein and meats because a vegetable-heavy diet has been awful for our public health
- genewitch 9mo ago
  has your government published any science on this? being completely serious, i'd like to read it. Is India mostly vegetarian because of lack of access to farms/meats, religious reasons, financial, or what? I didn't know it was largely vegetarian. I don't know i had an idea of the ratio or that it would be different than any other country. Apparently the Mediterranean also is largely vegetarian. at least the eponymous diet is.
  - simiones 9mo ago
    Most branches of hinduism condemn meat eating, so this has created a significant pressure against meat production (same as you'll find little production of pork in the Middle East and North Africa). This is not universal, of course, because historically many regions of India had large meat-eating muslim populations as well. Note that this is typically lacto-ovo-vegetarianism, not veganism.
  - galangalalgol 9mo ago
    Maybe home cooking is, but every restaurant meal I bhave eaten near the Mediterranean had seafood or cheese in it. Edit: you said vegetarian not vegan, and yeah lot of pasta dishes are vegetarian but not vegan.
- badgersnake 9mo ago
  Well if you cook the vegetables in litres of ghee that’ll happen.
  - spaceman_2020 9mo ago
    If you don't cook vegetables in plenty of fats, you will end up feeling unsatiated - at least the vast majority would if that's their only meal Salads are great, but eat them 7x a week for 2x meals a day and most will end up binge eating some absolute trash just to feel full

by didibus 9mo ago

hallole 9mo ago

The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy. The ordering here is purposeful, too, as they admit. One promo graphic includes a block of butter and a carton explicitly labelled "whole milk." This is a very definite downgrade.

keleftheriou 9mo ago
Why is that a downgrade?
- smaudet 9mo ago
  Dairy/Meat are both inflammatory and overconsumption contributes to a whole host of medical disease. Some protein is obviously desirable, but the ratios, like anything else in chemistry/biology, are paramount. I don't think the USA has a problem with under consumption of meat and dairy. If anything, it has a long standing overconsumption problem.
  - toxik 9mo ago
    The relationship between dairy/meat and inflammation is more nuanced than that. While some studies show associations with inflammatory markers, others find neutral or even anti-inflammatory effects depending on the type (e.g., grass-fed vs grain-fed, fermented vs non-fermented dairy) and individual metabolic context. You're right that ratios matter enormously, but optimal ratios vary significantly by individual - genetics, activity level, metabolic health, and existing conditions all play roles. The overconsumption concern is valid for processed meats and in the context of sedentary lifestyles with excess calories, but the picture is less clear for whole-food animal proteins in balanced diets. The real issue might be less about meat/dairy per se and more about displacement of other beneficial foods (fiber, polyphenols, etc) and overall dietary patterns. Many Americans do overconsume calories generally, but some subpopulations (elderly, athletes, those on restricted diets) may actually benefit from more protein.
  - genewitch 9mo ago
    why is meat inflammatory? is it they way it's farmed/raised? because we have teeth specifically designed to get meat off bones and animals that don't eat meat and weren't "designed to" don't have teeth designed to clean meat off bones. and that's just one i came up with, off the cuff. if it's current farming practices that make the meat/dairy bad for us, then fix that. But i don't currently believe there's a greater health benefit to taking a ton of supplements to replace the missing nutrients that meat and dairy give us that you absolutely cannot get from vegan diets without it becoming a monotonous pain in the neck.
    - GenBiot 9mo ago
      I think they mean in the sense of pro-inflammatory. Which it very much is (especially red meat).
    - donbrae 9mo ago
      You can get all the nutrients you need, easily, from a vegan diet, with the exception of B12 (a cheap supplement will cover that). Also, human ‘canines’ are pretty pathetic. They’ll do the job in getting meat off bones, sure, but are nothing compared with my dog’s teeth – he has proper canines. (He also doesn’t have to prepare and cook meat before tucking in. Humans are actually pretty lame meat eaters even in comparison to other omnivores like dogs, let alone carnivores like lions.)
      - genewitch 9mo ago
        vitamin D? unless you live within 10 degrees of the equator "the sun" is not a valid answer. The most available form of vitamin D comes from extracting the oil from sheep's wool/skin using chemicals (soap is a chemical, for the record.) Yes, it is possible to get a much weaker form of D from mushrooms, but not as they arrive, regardless of packaging. they have to be left outside in the sun for at least 8 hours, but ideally "two full days in the sun", cap-side up (facing the sun), and then a standard mushroom will have enough D2 for the average adult, maybe. I don't know the specific conversion from D2 to calciferol or whatever. And before anyone decides to cite 30ng/ml or whatever as "recommended", i disagree, 90-105ng/ml is more "ideal" and 500IU of vitamin D supplements aren't going to cut it. it's 1 IU per 10 grams of body mass (roughly). i can do this all day, it's a waste of both of our time. As lovely as vegetarian/veganism is in the abstract, the entire planet cannot be vegan any more than the entire planet can subsist off insects.
  - ChrisGreenHeur 9mo ago
    That explains the great olympic track record of India.
    - didibus 9mo ago
      I think generally people are optimizing for health outcome and longevity, not peak athletic performance at your prime age. But also, I've seen people often assume vegetarian or vegan diets are "healthy". But many people in India for example will still eat a lot of refined carbs, added sugars, fat heavy deep fried foods, large volumes of ghee or seed oils, etc. And total avoidance of animal products can also mean you have some deficiencies in nutrients that can be hard to obtain otherwise. A plant-forward diet is more specific, like the Mediterranean diet, which itself isn't at all how your average Mediterranean person eats haha. But it involves no processed foods, no added sugar or excessive sugar, diverse set of nutrients by eating a balance of veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, meats, dairy, fish, and so on all in appropriate proportions, as well as keeping overall caloric intake relatively low. It's quite hard to eat that way to be honest haha.
- yehat 9mo ago
  [flagged]
- hallole 9mo ago
  Meat and dairy contain the bulk of the saturated fat in the average diet. It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy, but due to the ordering, that almost seems to be implied. The saturated fat → LDL-C → heart disease relationship has a lot of evidence and history behind it. A very interesting research project if you needed one. I call this advisory a "downgrade" because heart attack and stroke (among other conditions) are both: 1) downstream of saturated fat consumption, and 2) the most prevalent causes of death among people in the developed world.
  - cogman10 9mo ago
    It also very prominently shows red meat, which is the worst you can do. fish > poultry > red meat. (Fish and poultry can be swapped, mercury is a real problem). But really if you are looking for the healthiest proteins then you really can't do much better than nuts and beans. Red meat beyond having a lot of links to heart disease is also linked to cancer. It should be seen as a treat, not the main thing you should be consuming.
  - Amezarak 9mo ago
    > It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy There's nothing absurd about this at all, this is my diet and my LDL numbers are great.
    - hallole 9mo ago
      That's unhealthy and honestly gross. Maybe you have the genes -- there are smokers who make it to 100! -- but you should adjust your diet for your own sake. I wouldn't bet on being an outlier.
      - Amezarak 9mo ago
        I don’t believe there is any solid scientific reason to change my diet. Indeed I’d say there is mild evidence otherwise. I think the main issue is being turning this into a moralizing issue.
  - 9mo ago
ANarrativeApe 9mo ago
"The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy." that's because the pyramid is presented pointy end down.
cmoski 9mo ago
Butter is king. It should be pictured with a crown, stars and glitter. Surely whole milk is better than less-than-whole milk?
tomp 9mo ago
You're literally just lying. The first thing shown on the website is - broccoli. The top of the pyramid includes both protein (meat, cheese) as well as fruits & vegetables. The reason that meat is shown first is probably that it's the bigger change (it's been demonized in previous versions), whereas vegetables were always prominent.
- simiones 9mo ago
  The first thing on the website is indeed broccoli. But the first thing in the new inverted pyramid, both on the website and in other graphics of it, is meat. In fact, on the website, when you first get to "The New Pyramid", you'll first see only the left half, the one that has meat and other proteins; you'll have to scroll more to see the right half with vegetables and fruit.
  - galangalalgol 9mo ago
    I don't think it is meant to read left to right but top to bottom. Chicken and broccoli are top center, and that is the standard weight lifter meal plan. That said, human dietary needs vary individually by far more than any lobbied leaders will ever communicate.
    - hallole 9mo ago
      The website is animated, so there's no question of which direction to read in, the left side literally pops up first lol. I can't lie, I miss websites that stood still, this could've just been a PDF. BTW, you say "lobbied leaders" -- if you're talking about the scientists who have their names on this report, you'd be very correct. The "conflicting interests" section has loads of references to the cattle and dairy industries.
- didibus 9mo ago
  The only difference from the previous guidance is that it's suggesting eating more meat and dairy, which would come at the expense of veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds. To be honest, I don't totally disagree from a practical angle. I think we have to acknowledge that most Americans failed to eat large portions of non-processed veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds. The next best thing might be to tell them, ok, at least if you're going to eat meat and dairy in large portions, make sure it's non-processed. I've found for myself, it's hard to eat perfectly, but it's easier to replace processed foods and added sugar with simpler whole meats, fish and healthy fats like avocado, eggs, etc. And since those have higher satiety it helps with calorie control and so you avoid eating more snacks and treats which are heavily processed and sugary. That said, in a purely evidence based health sense, it's not as good as the prior ratios from what I've seen of the research.

kristopolous 9mo ago

And that's going to dictate nationwide purchasing policies for things the the 30 million school lunch meals, million prisoners... This is worth millions of dollars a day and we're sold it as common wisdom from the mom and pop country doctor.

troupo 9mo ago
Kids in the US will no longer be served reheated pizza and chocolate milk? Whatever the incentives, go for it
- genewitch 9mo ago
  the rectangular pizzas were never "reheated". i have copies of the recipe cards to make enough trays of pizza to feed a school using the industrial kitchen appliances they have in schools. and whatever your issue is with chocolate milk, can you link a recent survey that shows the percentage of say, americans, that have had 1 or more glasses of water in the last month? a glass being at least 8floz (1/4 liter or so) i'm leaning toward "most people don't drink enough, if any, water; furthermore most people are probably varying levels of dehydrated", at least in the US. The fad of carrying water with you everywhere was lambasted into obscurity, at least in the american south. Anecdotally, many people have told me they drink 64 ounces a day, because diet coke counts and so does beer. that a kid is getting a fortified delicious drink they enjoy is fine by me.
  - troupo 9mo ago
    In a lot of schools "industrial equipment" is used to reheat frozen foods. As for chicolate milk: there's probably as much added sugar in it as in a can of Cola. Definitely not something kids should consume daily.
    - astura 9mo ago
      >As for chicolate milk: there's probably as much added sugar in it as in a can of Cola There's no way this is true, so I looked up nutrition facts- A 12oz can of coke has 39g added sugars and chocolate milk has 6 grams added sugars for the small cartons they have at schools. This is the first chocolate milk I found - https://www.kleinpeterdairy.com/products/fresh-delicious-milk/low-fat-chocolate-milk/half-pint-carton https://www.kleinpeterdairy.com/products/fresh-delicious-mil... In other words, coke has more than six times the added sugar as chocolate milk in containers that they are readily available in. Btw, Mountain Dew has 46 grams sugar per can.

spaceman_2020 9mo ago

And here in largely vegetarian India, everyone is now pushing for more protein and meats because a vegetable-heavy diet has been awful for our public health

genewitch 9mo ago
has your government published any science on this? being completely serious, i'd like to read it. Is India mostly vegetarian because of lack of access to farms/meats, religious reasons, financial, or what? I didn't know it was largely vegetarian. I don't know i had an idea of the ratio or that it would be different than any other country. Apparently the Mediterranean also is largely vegetarian. at least the eponymous diet is.
- simiones 9mo ago
  Most branches of hinduism condemn meat eating, so this has created a significant pressure against meat production (same as you'll find little production of pork in the Middle East and North Africa). This is not universal, of course, because historically many regions of India had large meat-eating muslim populations as well. Note that this is typically lacto-ovo-vegetarianism, not veganism.
- galangalalgol 9mo ago
  Maybe home cooking is, but every restaurant meal I bhave eaten near the Mediterranean had seafood or cheese in it. Edit: you said vegetarian not vegan, and yeah lot of pasta dishes are vegetarian but not vegan.
badgersnake 9mo ago
Well if you cook the vegetables in litres of ghee that’ll happen.
- spaceman_2020 9mo ago
  If you don't cook vegetables in plenty of fats, you will end up feeling unsatiated - at least the vast majority would if that's their only meal Salads are great, but eat them 7x a week for 2x meals a day and most will end up binge eating some absolute trash just to feel full