6 ms·

Yeah cause windows is amazing Or maybe macos? Ignore their freebsd parts of course.

DowsingSpoon 9mo ago
Yes. As far as kernels go, NT was pretty damn good. So is Mach, by the way, if you can afford the microkernel performance overhead.
- dundarious 9mo ago
  If you include all the drivers too (which surely makes the comparison more accurate), is that still the case?
  - nobodyandproud 9mo ago
    Windows NT 3.x was a true microkernel. Microsoft ruined it but the design was quite good and the driver question was irrelevant, until they sidestepped HAL. The Linux kernel was and is a monstrosity.
    - WalterGR 9mo ago
      What do you meant by them sidestepping the HAL?
      - avadodin 9mo ago
        I think the biggest one is that the whole GDI library was moved into the Kernel in 3.5x because the performance was terrible at the time. I don't think they ever intended to keep all drivers strictly userland, though. Just the service side.
      - nobodyandproud 9mo ago
        Mind you I don't have access to Microsoft code, so this is all indirect, and a lot of this knowledge was when I was fledgling developer. The Windows NT code was engineered to be portable across many different architectures--not just X86--so it has a hardware abstraction layer. The kernel only ever communicated to the device-driver implementation through this abstraction layer; so the kernel code itself was isolated. That doesn't mean the device drivers were running in user-land privilege, but it does mean that the kernel code is quite stable and easy to reason about. When Microsoft decided to compromise on this design, I remember senior engineers--when I first started my career--being abuzz about it for Windows NT 4.0 (or apparently earlier?).
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      This is outdated since Windows Vista, and even more so in Windows 11.
      - nobodyandproud 9mo ago
        Windows Vista isn't Windows NT 3.x. In the internal versioning, it's not even 4.0.
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Indeed, it is something better, Windows NT 6.0. And it is irrelevant anyway, given that this comment was written from 10.0.26100.
        nobodyandproud 9mo ago
        Oh, I see. You’re saying they improved the design. I know they added user-privilege device driver support for USB (etc).; did they revert the display compromise/mess as well?
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Yes, now graphics drivers are mostly in userspace, with only a tiny driver in kernel space, miniport. Hence why graphics usually no longer crash Windows, after a small black screen pause, everything continues as usual. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/display/windows-vista-display-driver-model-design-guide https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/d...
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- johncolanduoni 9mo ago
  Mach is not a very good microkernel at all, because the overhead is much higher than necessary. The L4 family’s IPC design is substantially more efficient, and that’s why they’re used in actual systems. Fuchsia/Zircon have improved on the model further. Someone will of course bring up XNU, but the microkernel aspect of it died when they smashed the FreeBSD kernel into the codebase. DriverKit has brought some userspace drivers back, but they use shared memory for all the heavy lifting.
  - saagarjha 9mo ago
    > Mach is not a very good microkernel at all, because the overhead is much higher than necessary. The L4 family’s IPC design is substantially more efficient, and that’s why they’re used in actual systems. As opposed to Mach, which is not used in any actual systems
    - johncolanduoni 9mo ago
      I mentioned XNU below. It doesn’t really count as a microkernel if you, you know, don’t actually use the microkernel part. At least for the 30 years between the FreeBSD collision and the introduction of DriverKit, which does most of its IPC through shared memory (because the mach ports are not efficient enough, I would assume).
      - saagarjha 9mo ago
        Yes, but a lot of other things use Mach messages.
        johncolanduoni 9mo ago
        All the major OSes have components of the larger operating system that run in userspace and communicate via IPC, including Linux. But userspace drivers and basic system services (VFS, network stack, etc.) are very limited in their use of userspace/IPC. If macOS is a microkernel in the sense of those built on L4, then so are Windows and Linux, and the word doesn't have any meaning anymore.
- heavyset_go 9mo ago
  XNU monolith-ized itself over time, even over some microkernel-esque boundaries.
lifetimerubyist 9mo ago
NT is actually a pretty good kernel. NTFS and the userland is what is shit.
- speed_spread 9mo ago
  NTFS is a beast of a filesystem and has been nothing but solid for 25+ years. The performance grievances ignore the warranties that NTFS offers vs many antiquated POSIX filesystems.
  - johncolanduoni 9mo ago
    What warranties? I assume you’re comparing it to ext4 and not e.g. ZFS?
    - speed_spread 9mo ago
      Here are a few - mandatory byte-range locks enforced by the kernel - explicit sharing modes - guarantees around write ordering and durability - safe delete-on-close - first-class cache coherency contracts for networked access POSIX aims for portability while NTFS/Win32 aims for explicit contracts and enforced behavior. For apps assuming POSIX semantics (e.g. git) NTFS feels rigid and weird. Coming the other way from NTFS, POSIX looks "optimistic" if not downright sloppy. Of course ZFS et al. are more theoretically more robust than EXT4 but are still limited by the lowest common denominator POSIX API. Maybe you can detect that you're dealing with a ZFS backed volume and use extra ioctls to improve things but its still a messy business.
      - pjmlp 9mo ago
        Also to point out that outside UNIX, surviving mainframe and micros, the filesystems are closer to NTFS than UNIX world, in regards to what is enforced. There is also the note that some of them are more database like, than classical filesystems. Ah, and modern Windows also has Resilient File System (ReFS), which is used on Dev Drives.
      - 9mo ago
cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
Apple at least has been making a concerted effort to kick more macOS/iOS functionality out into userland in the past several years.
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  Just like Windows since Vista.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

Yes. As far as kernels go, NT was pretty damn good. So is Mach, by the way, if you can afford the microkernel performance overhead.

dundarious 9mo ago
If you include all the drivers too (which surely makes the comparison more accurate), is that still the case?
- nobodyandproud 9mo ago
  Windows NT 3.x was a true microkernel. Microsoft ruined it but the design was quite good and the driver question was irrelevant, until they sidestepped HAL. The Linux kernel was and is a monstrosity.
  - WalterGR 9mo ago
    What do you meant by them sidestepping the HAL?
    - avadodin 9mo ago
      I think the biggest one is that the whole GDI library was moved into the Kernel in 3.5x because the performance was terrible at the time. I don't think they ever intended to keep all drivers strictly userland, though. Just the service side.
    - nobodyandproud 9mo ago
      Mind you I don't have access to Microsoft code, so this is all indirect, and a lot of this knowledge was when I was fledgling developer. The Windows NT code was engineered to be portable across many different architectures--not just X86--so it has a hardware abstraction layer. The kernel only ever communicated to the device-driver implementation through this abstraction layer; so the kernel code itself was isolated. That doesn't mean the device drivers were running in user-land privilege, but it does mean that the kernel code is quite stable and easy to reason about. When Microsoft decided to compromise on this design, I remember senior engineers--when I first started my career--being abuzz about it for Windows NT 4.0 (or apparently earlier?).
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    This is outdated since Windows Vista, and even more so in Windows 11.
    - nobodyandproud 9mo ago
      Windows Vista isn't Windows NT 3.x. In the internal versioning, it's not even 4.0.
      - pjmlp 9mo ago
        Indeed, it is something better, Windows NT 6.0. And it is irrelevant anyway, given that this comment was written from 10.0.26100.
        nobodyandproud 9mo ago
        Oh, I see. You’re saying they improved the design. I know they added user-privilege device driver support for USB (etc).; did they revert the display compromise/mess as well?
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Yes, now graphics drivers are mostly in userspace, with only a tiny driver in kernel space, miniport. Hence why graphics usually no longer crash Windows, after a small black screen pause, everything continues as usual. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/display/windows-vista-display-driver-model-design-guide https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/d...
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
johncolanduoni 9mo ago
Mach is not a very good microkernel at all, because the overhead is much higher than necessary. The L4 family’s IPC design is substantially more efficient, and that’s why they’re used in actual systems. Fuchsia/Zircon have improved on the model further. Someone will of course bring up XNU, but the microkernel aspect of it died when they smashed the FreeBSD kernel into the codebase. DriverKit has brought some userspace drivers back, but they use shared memory for all the heavy lifting.
- saagarjha 9mo ago
  > Mach is not a very good microkernel at all, because the overhead is much higher than necessary. The L4 family’s IPC design is substantially more efficient, and that’s why they’re used in actual systems. As opposed to Mach, which is not used in any actual systems
  - johncolanduoni 9mo ago
    I mentioned XNU below. It doesn’t really count as a microkernel if you, you know, don’t actually use the microkernel part. At least for the 30 years between the FreeBSD collision and the introduction of DriverKit, which does most of its IPC through shared memory (because the mach ports are not efficient enough, I would assume).
    - saagarjha 9mo ago
      Yes, but a lot of other things use Mach messages.
      - johncolanduoni 9mo ago
        All the major OSes have components of the larger operating system that run in userspace and communicate via IPC, including Linux. But userspace drivers and basic system services (VFS, network stack, etc.) are very limited in their use of userspace/IPC. If macOS is a microkernel in the sense of those built on L4, then so are Windows and Linux, and the word doesn't have any meaning anymore.
heavyset_go 9mo ago
XNU monolith-ized itself over time, even over some microkernel-esque boundaries.

lifetimerubyist 9mo ago

NT is actually a pretty good kernel. NTFS and the userland is what is shit.

speed_spread 9mo ago
NTFS is a beast of a filesystem and has been nothing but solid for 25+ years. The performance grievances ignore the warranties that NTFS offers vs many antiquated POSIX filesystems.
- johncolanduoni 9mo ago
  What warranties? I assume you’re comparing it to ext4 and not e.g. ZFS?
  - speed_spread 9mo ago
    Here are a few - mandatory byte-range locks enforced by the kernel - explicit sharing modes - guarantees around write ordering and durability - safe delete-on-close - first-class cache coherency contracts for networked access POSIX aims for portability while NTFS/Win32 aims for explicit contracts and enforced behavior. For apps assuming POSIX semantics (e.g. git) NTFS feels rigid and weird. Coming the other way from NTFS, POSIX looks "optimistic" if not downright sloppy. Of course ZFS et al. are more theoretically more robust than EXT4 but are still limited by the lowest common denominator POSIX API. Maybe you can detect that you're dealing with a ZFS backed volume and use extra ioctls to improve things but its still a messy business.
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      Also to point out that outside UNIX, surviving mainframe and micros, the filesystems are closer to NTFS than UNIX world, in regards to what is enforced. There is also the note that some of them are more database like, than classical filesystems. Ah, and modern Windows also has Resilient File System (ReFS), which is used on Dev Drives.
    - 9mo ago

cosmic_cheese 9mo ago

Apple at least has been making a concerted effort to kick more macOS/iOS functionality out into userland in the past several years.

pjmlp 9mo ago
Just like Windows since Vista.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]