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Oh jesus. Before anyone considers responding to Gavan, take a look at his comment history. He has a habit of posting completely unsubstantiated opinions, presen

Oh jesus. Before anyone considers responding to Gavan, take a look at his comment history. He has a habit of posting completely unsubstantiated opinions, presented in the most odious manner he can manage. He relates to his confabulations as if they were fact and expects you to do the same. Edit: I am only talking about your history on social issue threads. You appear to be quite talented otherwise, apparently you wrote Genesis 3D which was pretty awesome. Still, you present yourself on social questions in a way that is pretty much indistinguishable from trolling.

anthonyb 14y ago
Seconded. A number of these sorts of comments pop up every time something about sexism or racism in tech hits the front page, and all they do is prove the original article's point.
Tichy 14y ago
Classic ad hominem...
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Actually, a classic ad hominem would be "you shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is a terrible human being." "You shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is not engaging in good faith. His commenting history demonstrates a pattern of unsubstantiated opinions posted with the apparent intention of provoking a reaction and add no value" isn't ad hominem at all. It is a substantiated opinion based solely on the work presented and makes no judgements of his character.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    What tiresome bullshit. Just because you wrap it into elaborate sentences doesn't change the fact that you (or who ever started this) called for a dismissal of his arguments not because of the contents of the arguments, but because of his alleged bad personality.
gavanwoolery 14y ago
Troll Level: Master ;) Yes, I am definitely political-correctness-challenged (to put it in politically correct terms). I intend no harm, but I do like to challenge social norms. I used to think identically to those who think the opposite of me, so I understand where everyone else is coming from.
- nehan 14y ago
  Challenging social norms just for the sake of challenging them is not something to be lauded. You would be taken more seriously if you provided a well-reasoned response based on facts rather than throwing out opinions like "for every woman that really experiences sexism, there are two that exaggerate their circumstances". You are setting up a simplistic straw man and arguing that because you believe you have "seen some very average women programmers get hired into high positions just to fill diversity quotas" (how do you KNOW this, btw?) that reverse-sexism is rampant. You do not acknowledge that your understanding of their promotions could be limited, that they might have other skills besides simply programming, or what the position actually required. Because of these things it's very hard to take you seriously, and if you have a habit of doing these things, I understand why someone would dismiss you as a troll. It would be more interesting if you argued in a reasoned matter acknowledging the variety of experiences in the real world, instead of drawing generalizations from a few things you have seen.
  - gavanwoolery 14y ago
    I can only argue from what I have seen, heard of, etc; The glass I look through might not represent the world. Needless to say, I have acknowledged that sexism does exist, it is only my perception that many people tend to complain about trivial cases, whereas serious cases are usually handled with silence (could be wrong here as well). I personally know recruiters at Microsoft, AOL, and Google, so they have provided me with some of my insight (note that each of these companies has very different hiring policies though), other things I get from news stories, comments (like or unlike my own!), so like any propaganda take it with a grain of salt. From the instances I have seen, women are not only treated fairly (doing otherwise would be grounds for a lawsuit), but they are given special attention (I have seen more women greeted into tech with open arms than otherwise...males tend to want females in their male-dominated workplaces). Again, just pointing out what I observe, not claiming to be the Oracle of Truth. And actually, challenging social norms is a good thing. We tend to think like sheep, which is a good reason we only have two significant political parties in the US. It took somebody challenging my views for them to change (I hope for the better).

anthonyb 14y ago

Seconded. A number of these sorts of comments pop up every time something about sexism or racism in tech hits the front page, and all they do is prove the original article's point.

Tichy 14y ago

Classic ad hominem...

roguecoder 14y ago
Actually, a classic ad hominem would be "you shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is a terrible human being." "You shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is not engaging in good faith. His commenting history demonstrates a pattern of unsubstantiated opinions posted with the apparent intention of provoking a reaction and add no value" isn't ad hominem at all. It is a substantiated opinion based solely on the work presented and makes no judgements of his character.
- Tichy 14y ago
  What tiresome bullshit. Just because you wrap it into elaborate sentences doesn't change the fact that you (or who ever started this) called for a dismissal of his arguments not because of the contents of the arguments, but because of his alleged bad personality.

gavanwoolery 14y ago

Troll Level: Master ;) Yes, I am definitely political-correctness-challenged (to put it in politically correct terms). I intend no harm, but I do like to challenge social norms. I used to think identically to those who think the opposite of me, so I understand where everyone else is coming from.

nehan 14y ago
Challenging social norms just for the sake of challenging them is not something to be lauded. You would be taken more seriously if you provided a well-reasoned response based on facts rather than throwing out opinions like "for every woman that really experiences sexism, there are two that exaggerate their circumstances". You are setting up a simplistic straw man and arguing that because you believe you have "seen some very average women programmers get hired into high positions just to fill diversity quotas" (how do you KNOW this, btw?) that reverse-sexism is rampant. You do not acknowledge that your understanding of their promotions could be limited, that they might have other skills besides simply programming, or what the position actually required. Because of these things it's very hard to take you seriously, and if you have a habit of doing these things, I understand why someone would dismiss you as a troll. It would be more interesting if you argued in a reasoned matter acknowledging the variety of experiences in the real world, instead of drawing generalizations from a few things you have seen.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  I can only argue from what I have seen, heard of, etc; The glass I look through might not represent the world. Needless to say, I have acknowledged that sexism does exist, it is only my perception that many people tend to complain about trivial cases, whereas serious cases are usually handled with silence (could be wrong here as well). I personally know recruiters at Microsoft, AOL, and Google, so they have provided me with some of my insight (note that each of these companies has very different hiring policies though), other things I get from news stories, comments (like or unlike my own!), so like any propaganda take it with a grain of salt. From the instances I have seen, women are not only treated fairly (doing otherwise would be grounds for a lawsuit), but they are given special attention (I have seen more women greeted into tech with open arms than otherwise...males tend to want females in their male-dominated workplaces). Again, just pointing out what I observe, not claiming to be the Oracle of Truth. And actually, challenging social norms is a good thing. We tend to think like sheep, which is a good reason we only have two significant political parties in the US. It took somebody challenging my views for them to change (I hope for the better).