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I am going to say this knowing that I am venturing into "downvote" territory...but...for every woman that really experiences sexism, there are two that exaggera

I am going to say this knowing that I am venturing into "downvote" territory...but...for every woman that really experiences sexism, there are two that exaggerate their circumstances (and to be fair, this is not at all exclusive to women, it applies to other "isms" as well). I remember one woman at a place I worked at filed a complaint about sexism because a coworker (kindly) asked her out. Maybe its not appropriate to ask a coworker out, but it certainly is not sexist (read the definition of sexism if you disagree with me). A good deal of it actually winds down to the fact that people do not understand the definition of sexism. Being hit on is not sexism. Even being sexually harassed does not qualify as sexism -- although it is clearly another type of bad thing. Sexism is the act of favoring one sex over another. There are women who do experience sexism, but I would say tech has more "reverse discrimination" than anything else. Objectively, I have seen some very average women programmers get hired into high positions just to fill diversity quotas (and yes, I do know of a few very smart female programmers as well).

natrius 14y ago
In common usage, "sexism" doesn't mean what you say it means. You're technically correct, sure. But "sexism" is commonly used as a label for any socially unacceptable behavior related to gender. Also, a word of advice: claiming something like "a third (EDIT: actually two thirds) of sexism complaints are exaggerations" should always be backed up by some sort of data if you don't want to look unreasonable.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  True - when I say for every x there are two y's, I mean it more in colloquial terms (understandably that is not necessarily clear here), not hard statistics: that is, it is only my perception that there is more complaining about sexism than actual sexism occurring. It seems that the most vocal sexism victims actually experience the least amount of "real" sexism (like the girl who complained about being hit on at DEF CON). Again, these are just my perceptions/opinions, and I could easily be wrong. However, one thing I am certain of is that we focus too much of our effort on trivial cases of sexism, when we should be battling more important cases like countries that do not allow women equal rights.
  - natrius 14y ago
    "we focus too much of our effort on trivial cases of sexism, when we should be battling more important cases like countries that do not allow women equal rights." This is ridiculous. I can't affect Saudi Arabia's cultural norms. I can affect the tech industry's cultural norms, and it's my responsibility to do so when those norms are harmful.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    This DEFCON incident? http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-... It was more about sexual assault, and it was more about behavior at parties than at DEFCON. I know the line blurs, but once alcohol is served, it is hard to say the event is a professional and reputable one.
- 001sky 14y ago
  "a third of sexism complaints are exaggerations" Was not how he phrased it. It said there were multiple people experiencing similar activity. So that could be read as not everyone considers XYZ to be sexism. While anecdotal, the comment that this "should always be backed up by some sort of data if you don't want to look unreasonable" doesn't make any sense. The data quality, by definition, are what is being questioned. You don't solve such a problem by quoting similar data, and you most likely won't find "proper" data given the nature of the observation.
  - natrius 14y ago
    Your analysis of his comment is overly charitable. He did not question anything. He stated his opinions without backing them up with facts. I'm sure there are plenty of studies about the rates at which gender-related behaviors are considered inappropriate. Sexism isn't a new issue. Universities have entire departments dedicated to this sort of thing.
jessedhillon 14y ago
Oh jesus. Before anyone considers responding to Gavan, take a look at his comment history. He has a habit of posting completely unsubstantiated opinions, presented in the most odious manner he can manage. He relates to his confabulations as if they were fact and expects you to do the same. Edit: I am only talking about your history on social issue threads. You appear to be quite talented otherwise, apparently you wrote Genesis 3D which was pretty awesome. Still, you present yourself on social questions in a way that is pretty much indistinguishable from trolling.
- anthonyb 14y ago
  Seconded. A number of these sorts of comments pop up every time something about sexism or racism in tech hits the front page, and all they do is prove the original article's point.
- Tichy 14y ago
  Classic ad hominem...
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    Actually, a classic ad hominem would be "you shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is a terrible human being." "You shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is not engaging in good faith. His commenting history demonstrates a pattern of unsubstantiated opinions posted with the apparent intention of provoking a reaction and add no value" isn't ad hominem at all. It is a substantiated opinion based solely on the work presented and makes no judgements of his character.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      What tiresome bullshit. Just because you wrap it into elaborate sentences doesn't change the fact that you (or who ever started this) called for a dismissal of his arguments not because of the contents of the arguments, but because of his alleged bad personality.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
wilkie 14y ago
There is always one of these replies in every discussion on this topic, isn't there? Some guy comes in and tries to define 'sexism' for the rest of us with a greatly simplified version and then gives us an anecdote about how some nice guy (he kindly asked her out) gets accused of harassment by a women, and uses this to segue into 'reverse-discrimination' as though that could ever be an actual thing (let alone suggest that it is more prevalent than the discussed sexism) when the oppression only occurs in one direction. Oh hey, my sexism bingo card is full and I didn't even need the free space.
Evbn 14y ago
Which companies have these diversity quotas? I want to avoid them, as their work environments (and perhaps products as well) are rather unpleasant.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  ThoughtWorks is the only place I've seen go on record as having one. It doesn't seem to have hurt them, though: http://www.cio.com.au/article/437603/creating_more_gender_balance_it/ http://www.cio.com.au/article/437603/creating_more_gender_ba...

natrius 14y ago

In common usage, "sexism" doesn't mean what you say it means. You're technically correct, sure. But "sexism" is commonly used as a label for any socially unacceptable behavior related to gender. Also, a word of advice: claiming something like "a third (EDIT: actually two thirds) of sexism complaints are exaggerations" should always be backed up by some sort of data if you don't want to look unreasonable.

gavanwoolery 14y ago
True - when I say for every x there are two y's, I mean it more in colloquial terms (understandably that is not necessarily clear here), not hard statistics: that is, it is only my perception that there is more complaining about sexism than actual sexism occurring. It seems that the most vocal sexism victims actually experience the least amount of "real" sexism (like the girl who complained about being hit on at DEF CON). Again, these are just my perceptions/opinions, and I could easily be wrong. However, one thing I am certain of is that we focus too much of our effort on trivial cases of sexism, when we should be battling more important cases like countries that do not allow women equal rights.
- natrius 14y ago
  "we focus too much of our effort on trivial cases of sexism, when we should be battling more important cases like countries that do not allow women equal rights." This is ridiculous. I can't affect Saudi Arabia's cultural norms. I can affect the tech industry's cultural norms, and it's my responsibility to do so when those norms are harmful.
- Evbn 14y ago
  This DEFCON incident? http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-... It was more about sexual assault, and it was more about behavior at parties than at DEFCON. I know the line blurs, but once alcohol is served, it is hard to say the event is a professional and reputable one.
001sky 14y ago
"a third of sexism complaints are exaggerations" Was not how he phrased it. It said there were multiple people experiencing similar activity. So that could be read as not everyone considers XYZ to be sexism. While anecdotal, the comment that this "should always be backed up by some sort of data if you don't want to look unreasonable" doesn't make any sense. The data quality, by definition, are what is being questioned. You don't solve such a problem by quoting similar data, and you most likely won't find "proper" data given the nature of the observation.
- natrius 14y ago
  Your analysis of his comment is overly charitable. He did not question anything. He stated his opinions without backing them up with facts. I'm sure there are plenty of studies about the rates at which gender-related behaviors are considered inappropriate. Sexism isn't a new issue. Universities have entire departments dedicated to this sort of thing.

jessedhillon 14y ago

Oh jesus. Before anyone considers responding to Gavan, take a look at his comment history. He has a habit of posting completely unsubstantiated opinions, presented in the most odious manner he can manage. He relates to his confabulations as if they were fact and expects you to do the same. Edit: I am only talking about your history on social issue threads. You appear to be quite talented otherwise, apparently you wrote Genesis 3D which was pretty awesome. Still, you present yourself on social questions in a way that is pretty much indistinguishable from trolling.

anthonyb 14y ago
Seconded. A number of these sorts of comments pop up every time something about sexism or racism in tech hits the front page, and all they do is prove the original article's point.
Tichy 14y ago
Classic ad hominem...
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Actually, a classic ad hominem would be "you shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is a terrible human being." "You shouldn't listen to gavanwoolery because he is not engaging in good faith. His commenting history demonstrates a pattern of unsubstantiated opinions posted with the apparent intention of provoking a reaction and add no value" isn't ad hominem at all. It is a substantiated opinion based solely on the work presented and makes no judgements of his character.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    What tiresome bullshit. Just because you wrap it into elaborate sentences doesn't change the fact that you (or who ever started this) called for a dismissal of his arguments not because of the contents of the arguments, but because of his alleged bad personality.
gavanwoolery 14y ago

wilkie 14y ago

There is always one of these replies in every discussion on this topic, isn't there? Some guy comes in and tries to define 'sexism' for the rest of us with a greatly simplified version and then gives us an anecdote about how some nice guy (he kindly asked her out) gets accused of harassment by a women, and uses this to segue into 'reverse-discrimination' as though that could ever be an actual thing (let alone suggest that it is more prevalent than the discussed sexism) when the oppression only occurs in one direction. Oh hey, my sexism bingo card is full and I didn't even need the free space.

Evbn 14y ago

Which companies have these diversity quotas? I want to avoid them, as their work environments (and perhaps products as well) are rather unpleasant.

roguecoder 14y ago
ThoughtWorks is the only place I've seen go on record as having one. It doesn't seem to have hurt them, though: http://www.cio.com.au/article/437603/creating_more_gender_balance_it/ http://www.cio.com.au/article/437603/creating_more_gender_ba...