4 ms·

It seems to me you drew analogies between her and you, from the initial state of "seeing no problem at all", and then you realizing that you simply didn't see i

by Tichy 14y ago

It seems to me you drew analogies between her and you, from the initial state of "seeing no problem at all", and then you realizing that you simply didn't see it. That to me sounds as if you were implying that just like you, she simply doesn't see it and there she is wrong, analogous to the way you were wrong. Also her article doesn't sound to me as if she claims that there is no problem, just that it is obviously not a problem for every woman.

KuraFire 14y ago
Laura eventually made it clear that she wasn’t claiming there is no problem, but she did it so poorly that a huge number of people who read her post didn’t get that from it. Similarly, I (original Primer author) did a poor job making it clear that I never meant to suggest that every woman has this problem. The goal was to inform people that this is happening and this is a problem, even though you _probably were not seeing it_. Kathy’s experience and post are a very personal revelation of the painful journey of discovery (of this fact) that she went through.
- youngtaff 14y ago
  I think Laura's piece made it absolutely clear that she was speaking from personal experience and that her experience may have been different to others. She also made it clear that she had experienced sexism (in some form) at a previous role.
KSierra 14y ago
Yes, I suppose I was. Her post reminded me of the posts I used to make, and so yes, I guess I was implying that she, too, was wrong. I agree with you; it was not useful. I have nothing more to add.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I still found it interesting to read about your experiences, so I am bit sorry I worded my comment so strongly. To me it wasn't useful in the context of those two articles, but of course it is useful to hear about your personal experiences as an independent data point.
- stan_rogers 14y ago
  [insert expletive here], Kathy, don't quietly slink away. It matters not a whit that not everybody is listening; many are. Whether we are enough or not, I can't say. The worst of all possible outcomes is that one day Laura (and others like her) should awaken into the same harsh reality that blindsided you. And that will happen unless we, as a community, seriously address the tolerance we have for behaviour that simply should not be tolerated. We need to be reminded that it exists, and that while the behaviour might not be universally pervasive, a sort of tolerance of it, whether with a grudge or a giggle, is nearly so. I truly hope that Laura never has her eyes opened in the way yours were, but that hope hinges largely on the scenery changing in the meantime. "Make your users awesome" was a message we needed to hear, and that cry was silenced not merely by direct action, but by tolerance as well. This message, if anything, is more important. Let those who have ears, at least, hear it.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  It was, though. I loved hearing your experience and I thank you for sharing. There is a difference between saying "your experience is wrong" and saying, as you did, "your experience is incomplete." You have evidence that her experience is incomplete: your own experience contradicts it. We should care about your experience. Any theory of the world that fails to entertain it as possible is, at best, incomplete. I don't see anything wrong with saying so.

by Tichy 14y ago

KuraFire 14y ago

Laura eventually made it clear that she wasn’t claiming there is no problem, but she did it so poorly that a huge number of people who read her post didn’t get that from it. Similarly, I (original Primer author) did a poor job making it clear that I never meant to suggest that every woman has this problem. The goal was to inform people that this is happening and this is a problem, even though you _probably were not seeing it_. Kathy’s experience and post are a very personal revelation of the painful journey of discovery (of this fact) that she went through.

youngtaff 14y ago
I think Laura's piece made it absolutely clear that she was speaking from personal experience and that her experience may have been different to others. She also made it clear that she had experienced sexism (in some form) at a previous role.

KSierra 14y ago

Yes, I suppose I was. Her post reminded me of the posts I used to make, and so yes, I guess I was implying that she, too, was wrong. I agree with you; it was not useful. I have nothing more to add.

Tichy 14y ago
I still found it interesting to read about your experiences, so I am bit sorry I worded my comment so strongly. To me it wasn't useful in the context of those two articles, but of course it is useful to hear about your personal experiences as an independent data point.
stan_rogers 14y ago
[insert expletive here], Kathy, don't quietly slink away. It matters not a whit that not everybody is listening; many are. Whether we are enough or not, I can't say. The worst of all possible outcomes is that one day Laura (and others like her) should awaken into the same harsh reality that blindsided you. And that will happen unless we, as a community, seriously address the tolerance we have for behaviour that simply should not be tolerated. We need to be reminded that it exists, and that while the behaviour might not be universally pervasive, a sort of tolerance of it, whether with a grudge or a giggle, is nearly so. I truly hope that Laura never has her eyes opened in the way yours were, but that hope hinges largely on the scenery changing in the meantime. "Make your users awesome" was a message we needed to hear, and that cry was silenced not merely by direct action, but by tolerance as well. This message, if anything, is more important. Let those who have ears, at least, hear it.
roguecoder 14y ago
It was, though. I loved hearing your experience and I thank you for sharing. There is a difference between saying "your experience is wrong" and saying, as you did, "your experience is incomplete." You have evidence that her experience is incomplete: your own experience contradicts it. We should care about your experience. Any theory of the world that fails to entertain it as possible is, at best, incomplete. I don't see anything wrong with saying so.