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> I'm gradually tuning out Hacker News, because it persistently tries to ignore the politics that are destroying the United States and freedom of enquiry. Ther

> I'm gradually tuning out Hacker News, because it persistently tries to ignore the politics that are destroying the United States and freedom of enquiry. There are many places that focus on, allow, or encourage political content. Hackernews is not one of them, as by express design, it deems politics as off topic: > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

shagie 9mo ago
This essay also likely influenced the "what are things appropriate for HN": https://paulgraham.com/identity.html https://paulgraham.com/identity.html I finally realized today why politics and religion yield such uniquely useless discussions. ... Then it struck me: this is the problem with politics too. Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise for expressing an opinion. All you need is strong convictions. Do religion and politics have something in common that explains this similarity? One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this, everyone lets fly with theirs.
- zeroonetwothree 9mo ago
  Indeed, some discussion topics are more about being confident than being right, since there's no objective way to determine the latter.
  - foster_nyman 9mo ago
    "Until we know we are wrong, being wrong feels exactly like being right." - Kathryn Schulz
- wrs 9mo ago
  Typical paulg overgeneralization from his bubble. Just because many political opinions are legitimately debatable doesn’t mean that every opinion about every topic you call political is equally valid. That’s just silly. I don’t see Paul acting like every opinion is equally valid when it directly affects something he cares about. He seems to happily participate in “useless” political discussions when he has a strong opinion.
  - ndsipa_pomu 9mo ago
    Also, some of us are amenable to changing our opinions when presented with strong evidence/arguments. I suppose the larger questions ("what do we want society to be like", "which values are most important to us") tend to be baked into ourselves so there's a limit to how much someone will change. However, there's examples of people leaving cults etc. and dramatically changing their opinions and personality.
  - shagie 9mo ago
    My read of it isn't about if it's legitimately debatable, but if it's productively discussable (in an online setting). Topics about someone's identity aren't things that one can easily change - and certainly not from text on a screen from some stranger on the internet. Discussions about things that are core to someone's identity (in that setting) aren't useful. Religion and politics in that context extend beyond one's claims about a soul or which end of the political spectrum is more soulless. Asking about how to maintain an F150 in /r/fuckcars is similarly not going to be a useful discussion since the identity of the people in that subreddit is in conflict about something that is quite legitimately discussable. Keeping one's identity small (and topical to the subject matter at hand) given that it isn't in conflict with one's identity makes for a place that is much easier to moderate and keep a civil discussion. One can discuss the impact of Section 174 or ZIRP without invoking politics. However, once politics (or religion) is involved in a comment everything downthread of it becomes more difficult to moderate. So it's not the "ignoring politics" that's at issue - many topics in today's world are intimately intermingled with politics. However, discussing that politics directly makes this an environment that people tend to not want to participate in. Turn on showdead and look at the comments in this post to see the types of things people don't want to participate in... and how much worse the site would be if those were acceptable topics. There are many places where one can discuss those topics. Not every site has to be all things for all people. This one is thankfully one of the places where discussion on politics and the related identities doesn't happen.
- throw0101d 9mo ago
  > Do religion and politics have something in common that explains this similarity? One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this, everyone lets fly with theirs. Well, even Republicans accepted that an insurrection was a bad thing: > There is nothing patriotic about what is occurring on Capitol Hill. This is 3rd world style anti-American anarchy. * https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1346909901478522880 https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1346909901478522880 * https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/marco-rubio-2021-tweets-viral-231056179.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/marco-rubio-2021-tweets-... Are insurrections, now five years later, a good thing? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...
  - k_roy 9mo ago
    > Well, even Republicans accepted that an insurrection was a bad thing: Just not THIS insurrection? https://www.whitehouse.gov/j6/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/j6/
    - throw0101d 9mo ago
      Rubio thought that the insurrection was bad when it happened (see his tweet), but now… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ryandrake 9mo ago
I think people's definition of "politics" aren't universal. And a lot of people just take all the things they don't like and say "well they're 'politicial' therefore they aren't allowed here." Using the site guidelines as their own personal eraser.
throw0101d 9mo ago
> There are many places that focus on, allow, or encourage political content. Hackernews is not one of them, as by express design, it deems politics as off topic: That's all very fine and well in theory, but it's like saying the topic of the ship taking on water is not allowed to be discussed when you're on a Star Trek cruise: * https://startrekthecruise.com https://startrekthecruise.com Sure: a gash in the haul doesn't cover things like Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Janeway, but it's kind of a prerequisite that nothing is happening to hull integrity before the others topics can be entertained.
anigbrowl 9mo ago
Professors being told they can't teach some parts of Plato in philosophy class because the ideas are too dangerous is indeed an interesting new phenomenon. We have always discussed politics here. I agree with your point that HN shouldn't just be a forum for political content, I regularly flag posts about 'President posts insane thing on Truth Social' or 'Congressperson votes in ways people don't like,' but the intersection of economic, technological, intellectual, and political power is always going to throw up challenging ethical issues.
sifar 9mo ago
Yet geopolitics gets discussed. You cannot isolate technology from forces that shape and harness it. It is fine to restrict political discussion lest it overwhelm other more fruitful discussions, however burying one's head in sand while the society is being "engineered" is not the mark of a curious person.
adamc 9mo ago
The shutdown goes far beyond TV news-style topics. But whether by design or by fiat, Hacker News is no longer a place for intelligent discussion.

shagie 9mo ago

This essay also likely influenced the "what are things appropriate for HN": https://paulgraham.com/identity.html https://paulgraham.com/identity.html I finally realized today why politics and religion yield such uniquely useless discussions. ... Then it struck me: this is the problem with politics too. Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise for expressing an opinion. All you need is strong convictions. Do religion and politics have something in common that explains this similarity? One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this, everyone lets fly with theirs.

zeroonetwothree 9mo ago
Indeed, some discussion topics are more about being confident than being right, since there's no objective way to determine the latter.
- foster_nyman 9mo ago
  "Until we know we are wrong, being wrong feels exactly like being right." - Kathryn Schulz
wrs 9mo ago
Typical paulg overgeneralization from his bubble. Just because many political opinions are legitimately debatable doesn’t mean that every opinion about every topic you call political is equally valid. That’s just silly. I don’t see Paul acting like every opinion is equally valid when it directly affects something he cares about. He seems to happily participate in “useless” political discussions when he has a strong opinion.
- ndsipa_pomu 9mo ago
  Also, some of us are amenable to changing our opinions when presented with strong evidence/arguments. I suppose the larger questions ("what do we want society to be like", "which values are most important to us") tend to be baked into ourselves so there's a limit to how much someone will change. However, there's examples of people leaving cults etc. and dramatically changing their opinions and personality.
- shagie 9mo ago
  My read of it isn't about if it's legitimately debatable, but if it's productively discussable (in an online setting). Topics about someone's identity aren't things that one can easily change - and certainly not from text on a screen from some stranger on the internet. Discussions about things that are core to someone's identity (in that setting) aren't useful. Religion and politics in that context extend beyond one's claims about a soul or which end of the political spectrum is more soulless. Asking about how to maintain an F150 in /r/fuckcars is similarly not going to be a useful discussion since the identity of the people in that subreddit is in conflict about something that is quite legitimately discussable. Keeping one's identity small (and topical to the subject matter at hand) given that it isn't in conflict with one's identity makes for a place that is much easier to moderate and keep a civil discussion. One can discuss the impact of Section 174 or ZIRP without invoking politics. However, once politics (or religion) is involved in a comment everything downthread of it becomes more difficult to moderate. So it's not the "ignoring politics" that's at issue - many topics in today's world are intimately intermingled with politics. However, discussing that politics directly makes this an environment that people tend to not want to participate in. Turn on showdead and look at the comments in this post to see the types of things people don't want to participate in... and how much worse the site would be if those were acceptable topics. There are many places where one can discuss those topics. Not every site has to be all things for all people. This one is thankfully one of the places where discussion on politics and the related identities doesn't happen.
throw0101d 9mo ago
> Do religion and politics have something in common that explains this similarity? One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this, everyone lets fly with theirs. Well, even Republicans accepted that an insurrection was a bad thing: > There is nothing patriotic about what is occurring on Capitol Hill. This is 3rd world style anti-American anarchy. * https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1346909901478522880 https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1346909901478522880 * https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/marco-rubio-2021-tweets-viral-231056179.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/marco-rubio-2021-tweets-... Are insurrections, now five years later, a good thing? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...
- k_roy 9mo ago
  > Well, even Republicans accepted that an insurrection was a bad thing: Just not THIS insurrection? https://www.whitehouse.gov/j6/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/j6/
  - throw0101d 9mo ago
    Rubio thought that the insurrection was bad when it happened (see his tweet), but now… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ryandrake 9mo ago

I think people's definition of "politics" aren't universal. And a lot of people just take all the things they don't like and say "well they're 'politicial' therefore they aren't allowed here." Using the site guidelines as their own personal eraser.

throw0101d 9mo ago

> There are many places that focus on, allow, or encourage political content. Hackernews is not one of them, as by express design, it deems politics as off topic: That's all very fine and well in theory, but it's like saying the topic of the ship taking on water is not allowed to be discussed when you're on a Star Trek cruise: * https://startrekthecruise.com https://startrekthecruise.com Sure: a gash in the haul doesn't cover things like Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Janeway, but it's kind of a prerequisite that nothing is happening to hull integrity before the others topics can be entertained.

anigbrowl 9mo ago

Professors being told they can't teach some parts of Plato in philosophy class because the ideas are too dangerous is indeed an interesting new phenomenon. We have always discussed politics here. I agree with your point that HN shouldn't just be a forum for political content, I regularly flag posts about 'President posts insane thing on Truth Social' or 'Congressperson votes in ways people don't like,' but the intersection of economic, technological, intellectual, and political power is always going to throw up challenging ethical issues.

sifar 9mo ago

Yet geopolitics gets discussed. You cannot isolate technology from forces that shape and harness it. It is fine to restrict political discussion lest it overwhelm other more fruitful discussions, however burying one's head in sand while the society is being "engineered" is not the mark of a curious person.

adamc 9mo ago

The shutdown goes far beyond TV news-style topics. But whether by design or by fiat, Hacker News is no longer a place for intelligent discussion.