5 ms·

Windows is not for doing serious stuff anymore, the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC (if you turn off all the nags, it's pretty decent). I work on

by juancn 9mo ago

Windows is not for doing serious stuff anymore, the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC (if you turn off all the nags, it's pretty decent). I work on a Mac, I run servers on Linux, I game on Windows.

aaomidi 9mo ago
GPU drivers are legit easier on Linux than they are on windows at this point.
- juancn 9mo ago
  I haven't had any issues with NVidia's on the latest machine I built (like nothing). It's just an optional update whenever I remember to check for one.
- Phlebsy 9mo ago
  I get ~weekly crashes using an Nvidia card with arch/hyprland, but honestly it's less problematic for me to deal with than windows updates. I can format and rebuild my machine from scratch in less time than windows takes to download and perform an update. Flawless experience on non-nvidia hardware though.
  - gcr 9mo ago
    That's arch/hyprland though. You're even making it harder for yourself than it needs to be.
    - dTal 9mo ago
      That's understating it. There's no amount of skill that will render that setup stable - it's baked into the way those projects are managed.
      - rescbr 9mo ago
        That's why I keep using Gentoo and X11 to handle my three GPU setup. An Intel iGPU, an AMD dGPU on the same package as the Intel CPU and a RTX 4060 Ti eGPU connected through Thunderbolt.
    - Phlebsy 9mo ago
      Only have issues with it on my machine with an Nvidia card. Understand that it can be unstable and accept that when it happens - but with AMD/integrated graphics I don't have the same problem. Either way, only serves to further the point that Linux is in a pretty good place and the experience should only be better on more stable options.
  - internet101010 9mo ago
    I don't have that problem with Arch+COSMIC, which has the tiling you get with Hyprland but without the overly complex configuration. You can also switch to floating windows with one button if needed.
xyproto 9mo ago
How many games do you use on Windows that you can not use on Linux?
- juancn 9mo ago
  It's not the "can't" necessarily, it's about friction, I could get it working on linux, but then I'd probably be just fiddling with settings way longer than I do today. Current Windows gaming experience is almost like a console, just play and forget, (if you just use your machine for that). Another potential issue is that I have games in all the major launchers (and a GamePass subscription), and the only one that works reasonably well on Linux is Steam.
  - gcr 9mo ago
    I installed Bazzite just last month, it's set-and-forget. Zero hardware / driver issues, everything autoconfigured. Didn't even need to download steam. Absolutely shocked me how smooth the out-of-box experience was compared to even Windows 10. To my further surprise, I found my game library's compatibility on Bazzite was stronger than Windows 10 somehow. (Some old games like Moonbase Commander don't launch on Windows 10)
    - bikelang 9mo ago
      Agreed - Bazzite is the kind of set-and-forget level of quality I expect for a gaming appliance. I haven’t needed to twiddle with a single setting to get any games I’ve been playing (Stalker 2, Kingdom Come 2, Doom The Dark Ages, Arc Raiders, Helldivers, etc).
  - bikelang 9mo ago
    FWIW - GOG and Epic games play just fine via the Heroic app on Bazzite. I’ve only played a few games from those platforms so far - but it’s been as seamless as playing games off steam in my experience.
- xboxnolifes 9mo ago
  Battlefield, Call of Duty, Apex Legends, PUBG, Rainbow 6 Siege, Fortnite, Valorant, League of Legends, Teamfight Tactics, GTA5 online (and likely gta6 online). Personally, only TFT is a blocker for me, and you can get an inferior version working on linux, but it only takes you playing one of those games for it to be a blocker.
tantalor 9mo ago
This flowchart continues to be more or less accurate: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/mx4dni/choosing_an_os_101/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/mx4dni/cho... Might need a little update to bring it up to date. Disclosure: I fear technology and my daddy is not rich.
- juancn 9mo ago
  I get the joke, but I disagree. It mixed hardware with software in a weird way. Macs are as much about the hardware than the software, and the OS is just another Unix variant. Much closer to Linux/BSD than Windows. I like tech (no fear, I've been coding for 41 years at this point), but I don't like configuration, I'm a programmer, not IT, and also I heavily lean to getting shit done, so I prefer tools that don't get too much in my way. I abandoned Linux on the desktop after I lost a battle with Linux audio. I can't freaking believe there's not a single thing that unifies everything, it's such a pain in the ass to setup right. On notebooks it's a lost battle due to issues with power management that require way more fiddling that I'm willing to invest into.
  - bikelang 9mo ago
    I’m not sure what distro you used or how long ago this was - but I’ve been using Pop!_os as my general OS + dev env (and more recently switched off Windows to Bazzite for gaming) - and I’ve never once had to battle with audio or weird twiddling with settings to get stuff to work. In my experience - both have had the kind of out-of-the-box experience I’ve come to expect from Windows. If anything - Windows has required a lot more fiddling with settings and hunting down drivers as of late.
    - tracker1 9mo ago
      Try using a Bluetooth headset in online meetings. That's only the tip of the iceberg... Another is when you're trying to mix multiple inputs/outputs in Linux across various pro audio accessories, which only Mac seems to get right.
chao- 9mo ago
>the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC More and more it seems people don't even find it necessary for that. I'm "the Linux friend" for a lot of my friends, and over the last year-ish a surprising number of them have asked about advice for switching to Linux. I've helped four people attempt the switch, and three out of the four have stuck with Linux so far.
- exhumet 9mo ago
  yup i am too, steamdeck helped convert me fully. this year my goal is to move my main gaming desktop to linux with tiny spare ssd for windows to run the odd anticheat game on.
  - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
    How do you like the steam deck? Do you feel like it was worth the cost?
    - RandomChance 9mo ago
      Absolutely love it, the wife and I have hundreds of hours between us on our steam decks and it has consistently performed better than I expected.
    - thecommakozzi 9mo ago
      [dead]
- exographicskip 9mo ago
  cachyos has been nearly flawless for a non-steam deck (gpd win mini 2). Upgrades broke my tv being set to the primary display under gamemode but that was an easy fix. The other game changer (heh) was going all in on amd: cpu, integrated gpu, and discrete gpu via oculink. Nvidia may be the best overall performance for gaming and ai workloads, it still doesn't play nice with linux gaming
  - bigyabai 9mo ago
CWuestefeld 9mo ago
Gaming is a smaller thing for me than the Adobe creative apps, especially Lightroom. Granted, I could get that on Macintosh. But while their fans like to claim that Apple's engineering is all about usability, that hasn't been true for quite some time. It's now become a status/elitism thing (see, e.g., yesterday's conversation about Tahoe icons). And their UX model is very contrary to my way of thinking about things.
- adastra22 9mo ago
  Apple has a lot of failings recently. But macOS still has far more claim to “usability” than Windows!
  - shash 9mo ago
    If only because of the fact that the start menu (equivalent - the dock and applications view) isn’t an ad filled react app.
    - p_ing 9mo ago
      The Start menu is not a React app. It is based in C++ & XAML with a React component. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJNEFHj8b8&t=287s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJNEFHj8b8&t=287s
  - CWuestefeld 9mo ago
    I strongly disagree, but de gustibus non disputandum
- Zambyte 9mo ago
  Unless you need compatibility with Adobe file formats, Free editing software works fine too. I've been using Darktable for about a decade. People bash on GIMP for not being able to do what Photoshop can, but it's because GIMP is built with the intent of being extended by the user. It can be extended to do what people complain that it cannot do. Kdenlive is good at filling the needs met by Premiere. I think the hardest Adobe application for me to recommend a portable alternative to is After Effects. Maybe Blender can be coaxed into filling some AE uses.
Bombthecat 9mo ago
Gaming will be dead soon too... Thanks to hardware shortages..
- Bombthecat 9mo ago
  Ah I see, people don't remember the time where most games just released on console, because it was the biggest target group. This time will come back. Like it or not. People won't buy a pc for 2k.
codepoet80 9mo ago
Set my teenage son up to dual boot his gaming rig with SteamOS this Christmas. He hasn't rebooted to Windows since...
4ggr0 9mo ago
> the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC even this has gone away for me, exited first with Bazzite and am now on CachyOS. Still got a debloated Windows11 on a different SSD for when friends want to play games with kernel-level anticheat or other bs. feels good to be free of Microsoft. work on a Mac, game on Linux, phones run Android.
- exographicskip 9mo ago
  Love cachyos. Such a great OS. Wanted to love bazzite, but it's got too many opinionated takes and rpm-ostree is a PITA. pacman does have its pitfalls, but aside from upgrades, it's been appliance-level stable for a 100% gaming laptop docked to my tv
  - 4ggr0 9mo ago
    > rpm-ostree is a PITA yup...at first i thought, "at work i have to manage rpm-ostree servers, so why not use the same tech at home?", well, because the tech is freaking buggy, annoying and deprecated already (imagemode/bootc). Bazzite also had strange issues with the XBOX controllers i use, those issues went away with CachyOS. in the end it doesn't matter that much, on both i use(d) KDE Plasma. GF also uses the PC with her own useraccount to play her games. overall very satisfied, can't complain. don't lynch me, decided to go for the pretty standard instead of Sway or Hyprland, as i feared that this would bring more issues with gaming. maybe that's an irrational fear, who knows.
    - hollerith 9mo ago
      Bazzite is built using imagemode/bootc; is it not? I'm trying to understand the "deprecated already" in your first paragraph. (All I know about rpm-ostree is from using and adminning a distro that relies on rpm-ostree. I.e., I don't know much.) Here is my guess as to what you mean: Bazzite could continue to use imagemode and bootc while replacing rpm-ostree with something better, and maybe you'll give Bazzite another look after that happens.
      - 9mo ago
sofixa 9mo ago
I mean, macOS is not a serious OS either. It has worse error management/reporting than Windows - Microsoft at least give you the courtesy of pretending they're trying to help you resolve the issue with an indecipherable hex code and badly localised error message, that you may, if you're very lucky, be able to Google. Apple give you a middle finger with a "Something went wrong" or just spins forever. No information whatsoever on what the problem is and how you could possibly debug it. Compete lack of tooling to help with that too. Probably my favourite example was when it was giving me an error message of "A device is using too much power, try unplugging and replugging it". Which device? Which port? What is "too much"? HA, FUCK YOU. I spent hours trying to debug this (so there is a tool that can give you power use per USB device, but it's a point in time one). In the end rewired everything because it was just impossible to discover what the hell was its problem. Another fun one was trying to extend my macOS screen to an iPad, where the button just wasn't there. Why? What was I missing? Who knows.
- ryandrake 9mo ago
  > Probably my favourite example was when it was giving me an error message of "A device is using too much power, try unplugging and replugging it". Which device? Which port? What is "too much"? Another fun one: “Updates are available. Do you want to install them?” What updates? What software is getting updates? What do they fix? No information, just a notification asking you whether you want to install vague updates.
slowmovintarget 9mo ago
Ha... Ha haha haha... Ha! Valve saw exactly this scenario, because you're right: Windows isn't good for stability any more. Windows isn't good for driver compatibility anymore. Windows isn't good for being easy to do your own thing. It's only good for gaming... So: https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine
benterix 9mo ago
For me it's Autocad. Although I heard people managed to run it to Linux and don't complain.
exographicskip 9mo ago
I mostly agree with you. Now with proton/steamos, the only games that need windows are multiplayer games with kernel-level anticheat mechanisms (e.g., destiny 2). Otherwise, spot-on to my MO
joquarky 9mo ago
> the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC Amiga users have been here before.
internet101010 9mo ago
I can't even be bothered to dual boot into Windows to game anymore. Wiped my Windows drive over the weekend so that it could be used as a snapshot drive. If the game doesn't work on Steam on Linux I'm not interested - simple as that.
fleroviumna 9mo ago
[dead]
tsycho 9mo ago
I do exactly the same as you. I wish that I didn't need windows for gaming, and things are getting better on that front, but my favorite game (AoE 2) works significantly better on windows than on wine :(

by juancn 9mo ago

aaomidi 9mo ago

GPU drivers are legit easier on Linux than they are on windows at this point.

juancn 9mo ago
I haven't had any issues with NVidia's on the latest machine I built (like nothing). It's just an optional update whenever I remember to check for one.
Phlebsy 9mo ago
I get ~weekly crashes using an Nvidia card with arch/hyprland, but honestly it's less problematic for me to deal with than windows updates. I can format and rebuild my machine from scratch in less time than windows takes to download and perform an update. Flawless experience on non-nvidia hardware though.
- gcr 9mo ago
  That's arch/hyprland though. You're even making it harder for yourself than it needs to be.
  - dTal 9mo ago
    That's understating it. There's no amount of skill that will render that setup stable - it's baked into the way those projects are managed.
    - rescbr 9mo ago
      That's why I keep using Gentoo and X11 to handle my three GPU setup. An Intel iGPU, an AMD dGPU on the same package as the Intel CPU and a RTX 4060 Ti eGPU connected through Thunderbolt.
  - Phlebsy 9mo ago
    Only have issues with it on my machine with an Nvidia card. Understand that it can be unstable and accept that when it happens - but with AMD/integrated graphics I don't have the same problem. Either way, only serves to further the point that Linux is in a pretty good place and the experience should only be better on more stable options.
- internet101010 9mo ago
  I don't have that problem with Arch+COSMIC, which has the tiling you get with Hyprland but without the overly complex configuration. You can also switch to floating windows with one button if needed.

xyproto 9mo ago

How many games do you use on Windows that you can not use on Linux?

juancn 9mo ago
It's not the "can't" necessarily, it's about friction, I could get it working on linux, but then I'd probably be just fiddling with settings way longer than I do today. Current Windows gaming experience is almost like a console, just play and forget, (if you just use your machine for that). Another potential issue is that I have games in all the major launchers (and a GamePass subscription), and the only one that works reasonably well on Linux is Steam.
- gcr 9mo ago
  I installed Bazzite just last month, it's set-and-forget. Zero hardware / driver issues, everything autoconfigured. Didn't even need to download steam. Absolutely shocked me how smooth the out-of-box experience was compared to even Windows 10. To my further surprise, I found my game library's compatibility on Bazzite was stronger than Windows 10 somehow. (Some old games like Moonbase Commander don't launch on Windows 10)
  - bikelang 9mo ago
    Agreed - Bazzite is the kind of set-and-forget level of quality I expect for a gaming appliance. I haven’t needed to twiddle with a single setting to get any games I’ve been playing (Stalker 2, Kingdom Come 2, Doom The Dark Ages, Arc Raiders, Helldivers, etc).
- bikelang 9mo ago
  FWIW - GOG and Epic games play just fine via the Heroic app on Bazzite. I’ve only played a few games from those platforms so far - but it’s been as seamless as playing games off steam in my experience.
xboxnolifes 9mo ago
Battlefield, Call of Duty, Apex Legends, PUBG, Rainbow 6 Siege, Fortnite, Valorant, League of Legends, Teamfight Tactics, GTA5 online (and likely gta6 online). Personally, only TFT is a blocker for me, and you can get an inferior version working on linux, but it only takes you playing one of those games for it to be a blocker.

tantalor 9mo ago

This flowchart continues to be more or less accurate: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/mx4dni/choosing_an_os_101/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/mx4dni/cho... Might need a little update to bring it up to date. Disclosure: I fear technology and my daddy is not rich.

juancn 9mo ago
I get the joke, but I disagree. It mixed hardware with software in a weird way. Macs are as much about the hardware than the software, and the OS is just another Unix variant. Much closer to Linux/BSD than Windows. I like tech (no fear, I've been coding for 41 years at this point), but I don't like configuration, I'm a programmer, not IT, and also I heavily lean to getting shit done, so I prefer tools that don't get too much in my way. I abandoned Linux on the desktop after I lost a battle with Linux audio. I can't freaking believe there's not a single thing that unifies everything, it's such a pain in the ass to setup right. On notebooks it's a lost battle due to issues with power management that require way more fiddling that I'm willing to invest into.
- bikelang 9mo ago
  I’m not sure what distro you used or how long ago this was - but I’ve been using Pop!_os as my general OS + dev env (and more recently switched off Windows to Bazzite for gaming) - and I’ve never once had to battle with audio or weird twiddling with settings to get stuff to work. In my experience - both have had the kind of out-of-the-box experience I’ve come to expect from Windows. If anything - Windows has required a lot more fiddling with settings and hunting down drivers as of late.
  - tracker1 9mo ago
    Try using a Bluetooth headset in online meetings. That's only the tip of the iceberg... Another is when you're trying to mix multiple inputs/outputs in Linux across various pro audio accessories, which only Mac seems to get right.

chao- 9mo ago

>the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC More and more it seems people don't even find it necessary for that. I'm "the Linux friend" for a lot of my friends, and over the last year-ish a surprising number of them have asked about advice for switching to Linux. I've helped four people attempt the switch, and three out of the four have stuck with Linux so far.

exhumet 9mo ago
yup i am too, steamdeck helped convert me fully. this year my goal is to move my main gaming desktop to linux with tiny spare ssd for windows to run the odd anticheat game on.
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
  How do you like the steam deck? Do you feel like it was worth the cost?
  - RandomChance 9mo ago
    Absolutely love it, the wife and I have hundreds of hours between us on our steam decks and it has consistently performed better than I expected.
  - thecommakozzi 9mo ago
    [dead]
exographicskip 9mo ago
cachyos has been nearly flawless for a non-steam deck (gpd win mini 2). Upgrades broke my tv being set to the primary display under gamemode but that was an easy fix. The other game changer (heh) was going all in on amd: cpu, integrated gpu, and discrete gpu via oculink. Nvidia may be the best overall performance for gaming and ai workloads, it still doesn't play nice with linux gaming
- bigyabai 9mo ago

CWuestefeld 9mo ago

Gaming is a smaller thing for me than the Adobe creative apps, especially Lightroom. Granted, I could get that on Macintosh. But while their fans like to claim that Apple's engineering is all about usability, that hasn't been true for quite some time. It's now become a status/elitism thing (see, e.g., yesterday's conversation about Tahoe icons). And their UX model is very contrary to my way of thinking about things.

adastra22 9mo ago
Apple has a lot of failings recently. But macOS still has far more claim to “usability” than Windows!
- shash 9mo ago
  If only because of the fact that the start menu (equivalent - the dock and applications view) isn’t an ad filled react app.
  - p_ing 9mo ago
    The Start menu is not a React app. It is based in C++ & XAML with a React component. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJNEFHj8b8&t=287s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJNEFHj8b8&t=287s
- CWuestefeld 9mo ago
  I strongly disagree, but de gustibus non disputandum
Zambyte 9mo ago
Unless you need compatibility with Adobe file formats, Free editing software works fine too. I've been using Darktable for about a decade. People bash on GIMP for not being able to do what Photoshop can, but it's because GIMP is built with the intent of being extended by the user. It can be extended to do what people complain that it cannot do. Kdenlive is good at filling the needs met by Premiere. I think the hardest Adobe application for me to recommend a portable alternative to is After Effects. Maybe Blender can be coaxed into filling some AE uses.

Bombthecat 9mo ago

Gaming will be dead soon too... Thanks to hardware shortages..

Bombthecat 9mo ago
Ah I see, people don't remember the time where most games just released on console, because it was the biggest target group. This time will come back. Like it or not. People won't buy a pc for 2k.

codepoet80 9mo ago

Set my teenage son up to dual boot his gaming rig with SteamOS this Christmas. He hasn't rebooted to Windows since...

4ggr0 9mo ago

> the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC even this has gone away for me, exited first with Bazzite and am now on CachyOS. Still got a debloated Windows11 on a different SSD for when friends want to play games with kernel-level anticheat or other bs. feels good to be free of Microsoft. work on a Mac, game on Linux, phones run Android.

exographicskip 9mo ago
Love cachyos. Such a great OS. Wanted to love bazzite, but it's got too many opinionated takes and rpm-ostree is a PITA. pacman does have its pitfalls, but aside from upgrades, it's been appliance-level stable for a 100% gaming laptop docked to my tv
- 4ggr0 9mo ago
  > rpm-ostree is a PITA yup...at first i thought, "at work i have to manage rpm-ostree servers, so why not use the same tech at home?", well, because the tech is freaking buggy, annoying and deprecated already (imagemode/bootc). Bazzite also had strange issues with the XBOX controllers i use, those issues went away with CachyOS. in the end it doesn't matter that much, on both i use(d) KDE Plasma. GF also uses the PC with her own useraccount to play her games. overall very satisfied, can't complain. don't lynch me, decided to go for the pretty standard instead of Sway or Hyprland, as i feared that this would bring more issues with gaming. maybe that's an irrational fear, who knows.
  - hollerith 9mo ago
    Bazzite is built using imagemode/bootc; is it not? I'm trying to understand the "deprecated already" in your first paragraph. (All I know about rpm-ostree is from using and adminning a distro that relies on rpm-ostree. I.e., I don't know much.) Here is my guess as to what you mean: Bazzite could continue to use imagemode and bootc while replacing rpm-ostree with something better, and maybe you'll give Bazzite another look after that happens.
    - 9mo ago

sofixa 9mo ago

I mean, macOS is not a serious OS either. It has worse error management/reporting than Windows - Microsoft at least give you the courtesy of pretending they're trying to help you resolve the issue with an indecipherable hex code and badly localised error message, that you may, if you're very lucky, be able to Google. Apple give you a middle finger with a "Something went wrong" or just spins forever. No information whatsoever on what the problem is and how you could possibly debug it. Compete lack of tooling to help with that too. Probably my favourite example was when it was giving me an error message of "A device is using too much power, try unplugging and replugging it". Which device? Which port? What is "too much"? HA, FUCK YOU. I spent hours trying to debug this (so there is a tool that can give you power use per USB device, but it's a point in time one). In the end rewired everything because it was just impossible to discover what the hell was its problem. Another fun one was trying to extend my macOS screen to an iPad, where the button just wasn't there. Why? What was I missing? Who knows.

ryandrake 9mo ago
> Probably my favourite example was when it was giving me an error message of "A device is using too much power, try unplugging and replugging it". Which device? Which port? What is "too much"? Another fun one: “Updates are available. Do you want to install them?” What updates? What software is getting updates? What do they fix? No information, just a notification asking you whether you want to install vague updates.

slowmovintarget 9mo ago

Ha... Ha haha haha... Ha! Valve saw exactly this scenario, because you're right: Windows isn't good for stability any more. Windows isn't good for driver compatibility anymore. Windows isn't good for being easy to do your own thing. It's only good for gaming... So: https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine

benterix 9mo ago

For me it's Autocad. Although I heard people managed to run it to Linux and don't complain.

exographicskip 9mo ago

I mostly agree with you. Now with proton/steamos, the only games that need windows are multiplayer games with kernel-level anticheat mechanisms (e.g., destiny 2). Otherwise, spot-on to my MO

joquarky 9mo ago

> the only remaining use case for me is a gaming PC Amiga users have been here before.

internet101010 9mo ago

I can't even be bothered to dual boot into Windows to game anymore. Wiped my Windows drive over the weekend so that it could be used as a snapshot drive. If the game doesn't work on Steam on Linux I'm not interested - simple as that.

fleroviumna 9mo ago

[dead]

tsycho 9mo ago

I do exactly the same as you. I wish that I didn't need windows for gaming, and things are getting better on that front, but my favorite game (AoE 2) works significantly better on windows than on wine :(