3 ms·

> On the other hand if you rule such works out, wouldn't you also get rid of many important and enjoyable works. Much of Borges, Eliot's The Waste Land, DFW's n

> On the other hand if you rule such works out, wouldn't you also get rid of many important and enjoyable works. Much of Borges, Eliot's The Waste Land, DFW's novels and essays, Pynchon, Homer are some of the ones that immediately came to mind. But is Homer enjoyable? I don't dispute that it is important, or that it is enjoyable to some. But my memory of the Iliad from my freshman course on Western civ was that it was a cross between allusions which I didn't have the interest or patience to track down, and a long list of warriors, with eight lines about their family history each, who then promptly get killed by Achilles. Since then I've tried to read similar (maybe?) works of literature, with the same result. I tried to read Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude, but I'm sorry to say I couldn't get the point. It seems that the sort of people who enjoy Homer are, to a first approximation, the same sort of people as those who enjoy Joyce, or any other literary work where it is difficult to figure out what the author means. In short, I remain curious about how one might appreciate such a work, but I don't really buy your argument here.

bdr 14y ago
First of all, I think you're confusing correlation and causation here: "It seems that the sort of people who enjoy Homer are, to a first approximation, the same sort of people as those who enjoy Joyce, or any other literary work where it is difficult to figure out what the author means." For example, Nabokov is much more accessible than Joyce, but the same people who like Ulysses are likely to enjoy Lolita. Second, I would ask whether you enjoy any literature. Some people like words more than others. What do you like to read? Do you read poetry? Not everyone has to. People who study music tend to like more "inaccessible" music like Bach or Mahler or whatever, and I presume you don't think it's because they're being pretentious. I listen to more mainstream music. But words, I get and love. I haven't read the Iliad, but I loved The Odyssey. I read it for the first time two years ago (age: 26, translation: Fagles). It's full of sex and violence and dramatic tension. Expecting a dusty classic, I was surprised by how engaging it was.
- impendia 14y ago
  I do enjoy some literature. Huck Finn, 1984 and Animal Farm, Brave New World, Jane Eyre, Lord of the Rings come to mind. Didn't care for the Iliad, but I enjoyed Plato. But you mention enjoying words. Now that I think of it, I don't typically enjoy words. I enjoy the ideas that words convey, so I happily read a ton of books, but when the writing is not straightforward I quickly lose interest. And I do theoretical math and try to persuade calculus students that it's a fantastic subject, so I certainly can't accuse anyone of being pretentious when they enjoy something I don't!
  - bdr 14y ago
    Good point. Not all literature depends on a love of language in the way that Joyce and Nabokov do. That might be the key distinction.
Jun8 14y ago
Homer's works are probably the worst example in that list for that point since they are the only ones there that were created for solely the enjoyment of the masses (perhaps Shakespeare would be comparable). Unfortunately these works have now accumulated a thick elitist veneer that may get in the way when you're approaching them for the first time. When your prof says that the Iliad is the bedrock of Western civilization and stands in awe you tend to view it differently. Similar with Marquez's novel, he tried to emulate oral histories of old folks. So I'm afraid you didn't have a chance to come to these works in your own terms but had to treat them as parts of the canon.
- impendia 14y ago
  With Marquez I picked up One Hundred Years of Solitude years after I finished my undergraduate education. A quote on the back cover declared it to be second only to Genesis in profundity and importance, and I was curious. Certainly I did not have any literature professors breathing over my neck, I feel I did have a chance to come to terms with it on my own terms. I don't recall sensing any elitist veneer. Rather, as I recall there were multiple male characters named Jose Arcadio Buendia and I could never keep them straight. Moreover, there seemed to be virtually no sense of cause and effect, it felt like a bunch of shit just happened to the characters and they never got to make decisions. Their personalities would change, seemingly at random, and I kept getting confused. I'm sure there is some significant literary reason for all of this, but I lost track of the characters and the plot, got frustrated, and gave up. My loss, presumably.

bdr 14y ago

First of all, I think you're confusing correlation and causation here: "It seems that the sort of people who enjoy Homer are, to a first approximation, the same sort of people as those who enjoy Joyce, or any other literary work where it is difficult to figure out what the author means." For example, Nabokov is much more accessible than Joyce, but the same people who like Ulysses are likely to enjoy Lolita. Second, I would ask whether you enjoy any literature. Some people like words more than others. What do you like to read? Do you read poetry? Not everyone has to. People who study music tend to like more "inaccessible" music like Bach or Mahler or whatever, and I presume you don't think it's because they're being pretentious. I listen to more mainstream music. But words, I get and love. I haven't read the Iliad, but I loved The Odyssey. I read it for the first time two years ago (age: 26, translation: Fagles). It's full of sex and violence and dramatic tension. Expecting a dusty classic, I was surprised by how engaging it was.

impendia 14y ago
I do enjoy some literature. Huck Finn, 1984 and Animal Farm, Brave New World, Jane Eyre, Lord of the Rings come to mind. Didn't care for the Iliad, but I enjoyed Plato. But you mention enjoying words. Now that I think of it, I don't typically enjoy words. I enjoy the ideas that words convey, so I happily read a ton of books, but when the writing is not straightforward I quickly lose interest. And I do theoretical math and try to persuade calculus students that it's a fantastic subject, so I certainly can't accuse anyone of being pretentious when they enjoy something I don't!
- bdr 14y ago
  Good point. Not all literature depends on a love of language in the way that Joyce and Nabokov do. That might be the key distinction.

Jun8 14y ago

Homer's works are probably the worst example in that list for that point since they are the only ones there that were created for solely the enjoyment of the masses (perhaps Shakespeare would be comparable). Unfortunately these works have now accumulated a thick elitist veneer that may get in the way when you're approaching them for the first time. When your prof says that the Iliad is the bedrock of Western civilization and stands in awe you tend to view it differently. Similar with Marquez's novel, he tried to emulate oral histories of old folks. So I'm afraid you didn't have a chance to come to these works in your own terms but had to treat them as parts of the canon.

impendia 14y ago
With Marquez I picked up One Hundred Years of Solitude years after I finished my undergraduate education. A quote on the back cover declared it to be second only to Genesis in profundity and importance, and I was curious. Certainly I did not have any literature professors breathing over my neck, I feel I did have a chance to come to terms with it on my own terms. I don't recall sensing any elitist veneer. Rather, as I recall there were multiple male characters named Jose Arcadio Buendia and I could never keep them straight. Moreover, there seemed to be virtually no sense of cause and effect, it felt like a bunch of shit just happened to the characters and they never got to make decisions. Their personalities would change, seemingly at random, and I kept getting confused. I'm sure there is some significant literary reason for all of this, but I lost track of the characters and the plot, got frustrated, and gave up. My loss, presumably.