4 ms·

> I personally would be much more happy to work for lower pay than contributing to the prosperity of such a predatory country. Even if that pay was so much lo

by myk9001 10mo ago

> I personally would be much more happy to work for lower pay than contributing to the prosperity of such a predatory country. Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this) Then I admire your principled position, but you're one in a million.

RealityVoid 10mo ago
First of all, I am an EU citizen and I absolutely don't have to split rent with any flatmates. In fact, I own my residence. Second, I did in fact split my rent with flatmates during my 6 years of college, we lived 5 people in about 200sqft, then my first job I split and apartment with 3 other people. That was luxurious already! Sure, it would tricky to live like that if you have a family, but as a young person? It's fine, actually, it was a great learning experience. Anyways, what I want to tell you is that life is not that bad in the EU and things can be much much worse than the current status quo. Personally, I have no concern for myself or my comfort, but for my family. I could live in a box in a ditch.
- myk9001 10mo ago
  If you own, you hit a jackpot, basically. Then, yes, life in Europe can be very nice. Sharing an apartment while in college is OK, even fun in my book. We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?) Go check out, say, Berlin salaries on levels.fyi or glassdoor or wherever you prefer and filter out US companies. Given these conditions, 80000 euro is an amazing salary. Your take home is going to be around 46400 or 3860 euro monthly. Then head to immoscout24 and check rent prices in Berlin. Let me spoil it a little, a two-bedroom, two-bathroom 65-80 square meters apartment is starting from 1500 euro or so plus 200-300 euro for heating plus the rest of utilities. Or 2000 euro monthly in total. So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    > So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin. I’m confused. Is Berlin more expensive than I think it is or you never cook yourself? ~~~Add: how do manage to pay more than 50% in effective taxes?~~~
    - myk9001 10mo ago
      Where is more than 50% coming from? If you aren't married your effective tax rate is at 42% (tax plus social deductions which aren't technically taxes). Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself. > you never cook yourself? I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car? Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary. The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much.
      - Muromec 10mo ago
        Sorry, I misread 80k p/a for 8k monthly. You have a point. I would not get two bedroom two bathroom apartment for myself alone however. Or live in Berlin for that matter. Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Having a sweet 30% reduction of taxable salary was very nice, otherwive learn sone cooking and get an income-generating partner to top it up. Now after layoffs and AI-bullshit depressing wages it doesn't sound nice at all and node of us is in IT is Mr. Fancy anymore. And of course, mandatory -- don't go to western europe, everything is expensive, locals are racist, taxes are high and the weather is bad.
        myk9001 10mo ago
        > Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank? How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be? If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment. Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers.
Muromec 10mo ago
>Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this) In tech? Not really. Village kids having studies in the city -- sure, when they are too fancy to live in a dormitory. Tech is more like having a mortgage without your partner contributing kind of salary.
- myk9001 10mo ago
  Some rough numbers here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452
- myk9001 10mo ago
  OK, come to think about it, I have to admit, a job in Tech means you can afford renting a place on your own. I let my frustration with European comp levels take the best of me. My bad.
prmoustache 10mo ago
I moved from one rich country (Switzerland) to Spain 6 years ago and accepted dividing my pay by 3 to do this move (pay increased in the meantime and is no 60% of what it was in CH). Basically the only thing that cost more to me now are holidays abroad and I will expect a lower retirement package but quality of life hasn't been reduced. I could live 200m from the beach without having to share rent with flatmates and now own my place, have easy access to the sea, mountains, great bicycle riding roads and trails with few and respectful drivers, nice places to hangout and good climate to spend time outside. And I wouldn't trade that to the terrible (to me) quality of life in the USA: road rage, gun violence, car dependency, stupid urbanism, litigation culture, next level puritanism and hypocrisy aren't for me.
- myk9001 10mo ago
  Don't know your personal situation, but sounds like you're in a good spot. Happy for you! (Unironically). Here're some rough current salaries/cost of living numbers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452
optionalsquid 10mo ago
According to eurostat [1], > In 2020, 70% of the population in the EU lived in a household owning their home, while the remaining 30% lived in rented housing. So it does not seem like the price situation is as dire as you suggest, though Germany is on the lower end of the ownership scale. Personally, I had a flatmate (rented a room) for one year during my studies, but I don't know anyone currently living with flatmates. Plus, it's not like you have to live in the middle of the capital, thanks to extensive public transport [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/wdn-20211230-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/w...
- myk9001 10mo ago
  Thanks for the link, intresting. I must be missing something, how do these stats square with home prices being in the 200-500-infinity range ballpark and, a very decent for Europe, salary being 50 thousand euro or so? Oh, and all these news reports saying how young Europeans have to live with their parents until their thirties?

by myk9001 10mo ago

RealityVoid 10mo ago

First of all, I am an EU citizen and I absolutely don't have to split rent with any flatmates. In fact, I own my residence. Second, I did in fact split my rent with flatmates during my 6 years of college, we lived 5 people in about 200sqft, then my first job I split and apartment with 3 other people. That was luxurious already! Sure, it would tricky to live like that if you have a family, but as a young person? It's fine, actually, it was a great learning experience. Anyways, what I want to tell you is that life is not that bad in the EU and things can be much much worse than the current status quo. Personally, I have no concern for myself or my comfort, but for my family. I could live in a box in a ditch.

myk9001 10mo ago
If you own, you hit a jackpot, basically. Then, yes, life in Europe can be very nice. Sharing an apartment while in college is OK, even fun in my book. We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?) Go check out, say, Berlin salaries on levels.fyi or glassdoor or wherever you prefer and filter out US companies. Given these conditions, 80000 euro is an amazing salary. Your take home is going to be around 46400 or 3860 euro monthly. Then head to immoscout24 and check rent prices in Berlin. Let me spoil it a little, a two-bedroom, two-bathroom 65-80 square meters apartment is starting from 1500 euro or so plus 200-300 euro for heating plus the rest of utilities. Or 2000 euro monthly in total. So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.
- Muromec 10mo ago
  > So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin. I’m confused. Is Berlin more expensive than I think it is or you never cook yourself? ~~~Add: how do manage to pay more than 50% in effective taxes?~~~
  - myk9001 10mo ago
    Where is more than 50% coming from? If you aren't married your effective tax rate is at 42% (tax plus social deductions which aren't technically taxes). Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself. > you never cook yourself? I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car? Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary. The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much.
    - Muromec 10mo ago
      Sorry, I misread 80k p/a for 8k monthly. You have a point. I would not get two bedroom two bathroom apartment for myself alone however. Or live in Berlin for that matter. Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Having a sweet 30% reduction of taxable salary was very nice, otherwive learn sone cooking and get an income-generating partner to top it up. Now after layoffs and AI-bullshit depressing wages it doesn't sound nice at all and node of us is in IT is Mr. Fancy anymore. And of course, mandatory -- don't go to western europe, everything is expensive, locals are racist, taxes are high and the weather is bad.
      - myk9001 10mo ago
        > Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank? How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be? If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment. Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers.

Muromec 10mo ago

>Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this) In tech? Not really. Village kids having studies in the city -- sure, when they are too fancy to live in a dormitory. Tech is more like having a mortgage without your partner contributing kind of salary.

myk9001 10mo ago
Some rough numbers here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452
myk9001 10mo ago
OK, come to think about it, I have to admit, a job in Tech means you can afford renting a place on your own. I let my frustration with European comp levels take the best of me. My bad.

prmoustache 10mo ago

I moved from one rich country (Switzerland) to Spain 6 years ago and accepted dividing my pay by 3 to do this move (pay increased in the meantime and is no 60% of what it was in CH). Basically the only thing that cost more to me now are holidays abroad and I will expect a lower retirement package but quality of life hasn't been reduced. I could live 200m from the beach without having to share rent with flatmates and now own my place, have easy access to the sea, mountains, great bicycle riding roads and trails with few and respectful drivers, nice places to hangout and good climate to spend time outside. And I wouldn't trade that to the terrible (to me) quality of life in the USA: road rage, gun violence, car dependency, stupid urbanism, litigation culture, next level puritanism and hypocrisy aren't for me.

myk9001 10mo ago
Don't know your personal situation, but sounds like you're in a good spot. Happy for you! (Unironically). Here're some rough current salaries/cost of living numbers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452

optionalsquid 10mo ago

According to eurostat [1], > In 2020, 70% of the population in the EU lived in a household owning their home, while the remaining 30% lived in rented housing. So it does not seem like the price situation is as dire as you suggest, though Germany is on the lower end of the ownership scale. Personally, I had a flatmate (rented a room) for one year during my studies, but I don't know anyone currently living with flatmates. Plus, it's not like you have to live in the middle of the capital, thanks to extensive public transport [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/wdn-20211230-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/w...

myk9001 10mo ago
Thanks for the link, intresting. I must be missing something, how do these stats square with home prices being in the 200-500-infinity range ballpark and, a very decent for Europe, salary being 50 thousand euro or so? Oh, and all these news reports saying how young Europeans have to live with their parents until their thirties?