5 ms·

Why?

Mountain_Skies 9mo ago
Because the excesses are well documented and the proponents of it are constantly disingenuous about the issues that make it widely hated everywhere except in SV and in C-suites. It's at risk of being eliminated completely because those who abuse the system are spoiled brats that melt down over any hint of reform. When reform isn't possible, elimination becomes the only choice to make the excesses stop. Pretending not to understand this only makes it that much more likely that it will be eliminated entirely. The time for getting away with playing dumb is long gone. All it accomplishes is making the program even more hated. The temporary program from three decades ago to bring in some extra help until the industry could ramp up training programs to develop domestic talent isn't temporary after three decades and the industry has made clear as long as it exists, there will be no honest attempts at developing talent instead of going for the lowest cost global source. All of the above will of course fall on deaf ears, with all the usual intellectually dishonest deflections and outright lies being brandied about. This once again guarantees that reform will be impossible and elimination the only solution.
calculatte 9mo ago
Rampant abuse, fraud, nepotistic hiring combined with record high tech unemployment to start.
- distortionfield 9mo ago
  There is little reason to believe that low hiring will be improved in any significant amount by removal of the H1B pool.
  - calculatte 9mo ago
    Yeah, it should also be combined with the elimination of OPT, H4 EAD, and H1 visas that are harming the STEM industries in the same way to the tune of 6 million jobs. New grads can't compete with the tax benefits provided by hiring OPT workers.
    - RealityVoid 9mo ago
      So... Protectionism, right? Stupid me, I thought the US was about competition and boldness, a place where a man can work, be good at what he does and be appreciated for it. But it turns out that for many of you it's about the place you happened to be born.
      - remarkEon 9mo ago
        Yes. The purpose of the United States government is to benefit the people already here. It is not reasonable to assume that Americans should have to compete with the labor pool of the entire planet. >But it turns out that for many of you it's about the place you happened to be born. This meme needs to die. It was not some sort of accident that I was born in this country, it was the consequence of generations of conscious decisions and actions. I had a 0% probability of being born literally anywhere else. And as such, it is perfectly reasonable to want my government to prioritize the needs of me and my compatriots over those of others who are not from here.
        RealityVoid 9mo ago
        > Americans should have to compete with the labor pool of the entire planet. You almost always do, with houw our world is set up. No matter what you believe. > it was the consequence of generations of conscious decisions and actions. Oh, yeah, you are worthy, the others aren't. Got it. > it is perfectly reasonable to want my government to prioritize the needs of me and my compatriots over those of others who are not from here. They are not, in fact, prioritizing the needs of your compatriots. They would if they cared about making your country more competitive. But in fact, they are hard at work to alienate your allies, erase your competitive advantages and turn you into a dictatorship. Good luck, you're going to need it. Don't worry, I know us across the pond are fucked too, but at least we are not throwing away our status as a superpower for the dumbest of reasons.
        Muromec 9mo ago
        >at least we are not throwing away our status as a superpower for the dumbest of reasons. If you would choose to believe, all of this is a strategic play to get off the resource curse (aka the Dutch disease), with resources in question being trust and US dollar being the world currency. Throwing that away may be a good thing for US long term.
  - SilverElfin 9mo ago
    Yep, all H1B workers combined are less than 500K people. A tiny, tiny portion of the job market, which is like 175 million jobs
    - _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
      65% of H1B jobs are in one industry, “computer-related” jobs as of 2023. There are over 700,000 H1Bs in the USA, so almost half a million tech industry specific H1B jobs. Considering there are roughly 6-10 million tech jobs in total in the USA, that's 5-9% of tech jobs.
- Mountain_Skies 9mo ago
  As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." There is nothing you can post that will change this. The people openly abusing the intent of the program are growing too wealthy for them to even pretend to understand the negative effects. Don't expect them to accept there ever being any consequences for themselves for what they have done. Cutting them off cold turkey and enforcing the laws they've been breaking is the type of ice water shock they need to come back down to reality.
- SilverElfin 9mo ago
  There is no rampant abuse or fraud or nepotistic hiring. These are just the latest talking points from supremacists on Twitter / X, that they repeat without any evidence, to rage bait the gullible. I’ve not seen nepotistic hiring from my immigrant coworkers, just merit based hiring. Do you really think all these well run and successful companies are leaning into allegedly low skill workers and nepotism because it is good for their business? No - they’re leaning into merit because that’s what is making them great. If you disagree, share your evidence. Oh and also, high tech unemployment is not a reason to stop the H1B or other programs. If you’re unemployed in one industry, go find another one - don’t steal from me for your protectionism.
  - _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
    Your last sentence: "Oh and also, high tech unemployment is not a reason to stop the H1B or other programs. If you’re unemployed in one industry, go find another one - don’t steal from me for your protectionism." directly contradicts the written purpose of the H-1B program. H-1B is explicitly conditioned on labor-market protection: prevailing wage requirements, attestations that U.S. workers are not being displaced, and the idea that the visa exists only when qualified domestic labor is unavailable. “If you’re unemployed, go find another industry” does not fit with H1B and shows you are OK with and personally normalize it's abuse. The fact that you’re such a strong defender of H-1B while rejecting its core statutory premise shows you’re arguing for something other than H-1B as it exists in law. That mismatch is itself evidence that the concerns you dismiss aren’t coming from nowhere.
yieldcrv 9mo ago
no OP, but I can answer one way: the US has very many visa programs, including half a dozen to a dozen work visa programs this one particular visa program is politically radioactive, as if it is the only work visa program, and it doesn't accomplish its stated goals in hardly any way until that can be settled I think and the program ironed out, it should be hampered to closed off, a moratorium I would like to see the H1B program used to its original (and still codified) standards - highly in demand professionals that couldn't be sourced in the US so easily and are exceptional. The minimum wage for what such a professional would be paid was set in the 1980s, to $60,000 for someone with a master's degree, when it was exception. This minimum would be around $156,000/yr today. Okay, let's do that, that makes sense if its politically radioactive to even just suggest that, all the more reason for a moratorium on that program, to me
- QGQBGdeZREunxLe 9mo ago
  It's poorly labelled. Highly in demand professionals are eligible for O1. H1B is the base work visa for those that aren't covered by a trade deal or haven't completed a US university program, or have and completed OPT.
- bialpio 9mo ago
  For reference, I was an H-1B holder. My starting salary (straight out of college after finishing my master's) in one of the big tech companies was $95k base pay, this was 13 years ago. From my perspective, the visa program worked as intended.
  - pandaman 9mo ago
    It was not intended to hire fresh grads with zero experience though and your example shows that it had already been broken 13 years ago.
  - yieldcrv 9mo ago
    In what way do you think it worked as intended? 13 years ago you should have been ineligible by both base salary and scarcity, until you were a senior architect in some specific niche and commanded a greater base salary Or on a different work visa Exhibit a b and c I’m not saying you aren’t supposed to be here, I’m saying fix that program. The US shouldn’t be training talent and kicking them out. We should be training and keeping talent. H1B doesn’t do that well either.
intermerda 9mo ago
[flagged]
- calculatte 9mo ago
  [flagged]
- arresin 9mo ago
  This is such bizarre sick talk. Only in the west do we suffer this. It’s really weird and a holdover from a really strange time in the 60-70s.
nis0s 9mo ago
I am looking at the problem from a population and industry level, and so my apologies if I am not looking at it from the individual’s perspective. The first issue which stands out to me is that the world at-large doesn’t create enough jobs in industries where highly-skilled Western educated workers can work. In fact, low-skilled Western educated workers don’t have many prospects at a global stage either. So Western-educated workers (either immigrants or citizens) are stuck in Western nations due to several factors, including pay ranges, work conditions, and quality of life reasons, like access to a clean and safe environment, or a working justice system. The quality of life reasons and pay ranges are the main attractors for immigrants as well, which is why some nation-state economies have remittances as a key component of their GDP. On top of that, some nations have sacrificed building an education and employment infrastructure in favor of building what are essentially factories for producing workers for Western nations. This also has the side effect of keeping the quality of life of these countries suppressed because people who would voice the most discontent simply leave. So, I’d say the second reason immigration visas need a more nuanced approach is because they hurt the development of other countries, unless those countries set up remittances or job contract pipelines. But even so, there’s no guarantee that the baseline quality of life will improve even as GDP sky rockets. If you look at where people work, and how they’re the happiest working, it’s when they can find something modest which affords them a reasonable quality of life in their local environment. Great examples of this include many East Asian and Northern European countries. The key difference here is that these countries prioritize building benefits for their populations via education and workforce training and development. Unlucky people in any country will hope to immigrate to change that aspect of their life, which is a failure on the part of their home nation, not the individual. Some nations have prioritized infiltration of large cap Western companies primarily for strategic geopolitical reasons, and that’s the third reason why I think immigration visas need a more nuanced approach. Lastly (because I am secretly an idealist), I’d like large cap companies to be responsible with the great power they wield. Large cap companies have a global reach, and so can upset the local economies of any country by interfering with the work of small to medium sized businesses. Imagine if Google decides that it will set up shop in South Africa because the U.S. curtails all H1B hiring. Some people in South Africa will benefit, but the overall effect will be that the majority of the population will desire to shift its behavior so the individual can work at the best possible economic opportunity. While that sounds like an ideal scenario to a Western-educated liberal, consider that many businesses in local communities will lose out on potential high-skilled workers. The ecosystem of workforce development and employment needs to balanced against community development. Large cap companies subvert the function of local communities by shifting the calculus to economic optimization, whereas healthy and thriving communities have other goals as well. Populations as a whole have lost sense of purpose because the main reason most people work is so that they can stop working. But globalization perverted that mindset by prioritizing the needs of large corporations over the needs of local communities. People still want to stop working, but they don’t know how to reach that goal. This problem exists because more than half the countries in the world have sacrificed their own development in favor of developing workers for large cap companies in Western countries. Bit of a hastily typed ramble, but I hope the gist of it is clear enough.

Why?

Because the excesses are well documented and the proponents of it are constantly disingenuous about the issues that make it widely hated everywhere except in SV and in C-suites. It's at risk of being eliminated completely because those who abuse the system are spoiled brats that melt down over any hint of reform. When reform isn't possible, elimination becomes the only choice to make the excesses stop. Pretending not to understand this only makes it that much more likely that it will be eliminated entirely. The time for getting away with playing dumb is long gone. All it accomplishes is making the program even more hated. The temporary program from three decades ago to bring in some extra help until the industry could ramp up training programs to develop domestic talent isn't temporary after three decades and the industry has made clear as long as it exists, there will be no honest attempts at developing talent instead of going for the lowest cost global source. All of the above will of course fall on deaf ears, with all the usual intellectually dishonest deflections and outright lies being brandied about. This once again guarantees that reform will be impossible and elimination the only solution.

calculatte 9mo ago

Rampant abuse, fraud, nepotistic hiring combined with record high tech unemployment to start.

distortionfield 9mo ago
There is little reason to believe that low hiring will be improved in any significant amount by removal of the H1B pool.
- calculatte 9mo ago
  Yeah, it should also be combined with the elimination of OPT, H4 EAD, and H1 visas that are harming the STEM industries in the same way to the tune of 6 million jobs. New grads can't compete with the tax benefits provided by hiring OPT workers.
  - RealityVoid 9mo ago
    So... Protectionism, right? Stupid me, I thought the US was about competition and boldness, a place where a man can work, be good at what he does and be appreciated for it. But it turns out that for many of you it's about the place you happened to be born.
    - remarkEon 9mo ago
      Yes. The purpose of the United States government is to benefit the people already here. It is not reasonable to assume that Americans should have to compete with the labor pool of the entire planet. >But it turns out that for many of you it's about the place you happened to be born. This meme needs to die. It was not some sort of accident that I was born in this country, it was the consequence of generations of conscious decisions and actions. I had a 0% probability of being born literally anywhere else. And as such, it is perfectly reasonable to want my government to prioritize the needs of me and my compatriots over those of others who are not from here.
      - RealityVoid 9mo ago
        > Americans should have to compete with the labor pool of the entire planet. You almost always do, with houw our world is set up. No matter what you believe. > it was the consequence of generations of conscious decisions and actions. Oh, yeah, you are worthy, the others aren't. Got it. > it is perfectly reasonable to want my government to prioritize the needs of me and my compatriots over those of others who are not from here. They are not, in fact, prioritizing the needs of your compatriots. They would if they cared about making your country more competitive. But in fact, they are hard at work to alienate your allies, erase your competitive advantages and turn you into a dictatorship. Good luck, you're going to need it. Don't worry, I know us across the pond are fucked too, but at least we are not throwing away our status as a superpower for the dumbest of reasons.
        Muromec 9mo ago
        >at least we are not throwing away our status as a superpower for the dumbest of reasons. If you would choose to believe, all of this is a strategic play to get off the resource curse (aka the Dutch disease), with resources in question being trust and US dollar being the world currency. Throwing that away may be a good thing for US long term.
- SilverElfin 9mo ago
  Yep, all H1B workers combined are less than 500K people. A tiny, tiny portion of the job market, which is like 175 million jobs
  - _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
    65% of H1B jobs are in one industry, “computer-related” jobs as of 2023. There are over 700,000 H1Bs in the USA, so almost half a million tech industry specific H1B jobs. Considering there are roughly 6-10 million tech jobs in total in the USA, that's 5-9% of tech jobs.
Mountain_Skies 9mo ago
As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." There is nothing you can post that will change this. The people openly abusing the intent of the program are growing too wealthy for them to even pretend to understand the negative effects. Don't expect them to accept there ever being any consequences for themselves for what they have done. Cutting them off cold turkey and enforcing the laws they've been breaking is the type of ice water shock they need to come back down to reality.
SilverElfin 9mo ago
There is no rampant abuse or fraud or nepotistic hiring. These are just the latest talking points from supremacists on Twitter / X, that they repeat without any evidence, to rage bait the gullible. I’ve not seen nepotistic hiring from my immigrant coworkers, just merit based hiring. Do you really think all these well run and successful companies are leaning into allegedly low skill workers and nepotism because it is good for their business? No - they’re leaning into merit because that’s what is making them great. If you disagree, share your evidence. Oh and also, high tech unemployment is not a reason to stop the H1B or other programs. If you’re unemployed in one industry, go find another one - don’t steal from me for your protectionism.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
  Your last sentence: "Oh and also, high tech unemployment is not a reason to stop the H1B or other programs. If you’re unemployed in one industry, go find another one - don’t steal from me for your protectionism." directly contradicts the written purpose of the H-1B program. H-1B is explicitly conditioned on labor-market protection: prevailing wage requirements, attestations that U.S. workers are not being displaced, and the idea that the visa exists only when qualified domestic labor is unavailable. “If you’re unemployed, go find another industry” does not fit with H1B and shows you are OK with and personally normalize it's abuse. The fact that you’re such a strong defender of H-1B while rejecting its core statutory premise shows you’re arguing for something other than H-1B as it exists in law. That mismatch is itself evidence that the concerns you dismiss aren’t coming from nowhere.

yieldcrv 9mo ago

no OP, but I can answer one way: the US has very many visa programs, including half a dozen to a dozen work visa programs this one particular visa program is politically radioactive, as if it is the only work visa program, and it doesn't accomplish its stated goals in hardly any way until that can be settled I think and the program ironed out, it should be hampered to closed off, a moratorium I would like to see the H1B program used to its original (and still codified) standards - highly in demand professionals that couldn't be sourced in the US so easily and are exceptional. The minimum wage for what such a professional would be paid was set in the 1980s, to $60,000 for someone with a master's degree, when it was exception. This minimum would be around $156,000/yr today. Okay, let's do that, that makes sense if its politically radioactive to even just suggest that, all the more reason for a moratorium on that program, to me

QGQBGdeZREunxLe 9mo ago
It's poorly labelled. Highly in demand professionals are eligible for O1. H1B is the base work visa for those that aren't covered by a trade deal or haven't completed a US university program, or have and completed OPT.
bialpio 9mo ago
For reference, I was an H-1B holder. My starting salary (straight out of college after finishing my master's) in one of the big tech companies was $95k base pay, this was 13 years ago. From my perspective, the visa program worked as intended.
- pandaman 9mo ago
  It was not intended to hire fresh grads with zero experience though and your example shows that it had already been broken 13 years ago.
- yieldcrv 9mo ago
  In what way do you think it worked as intended? 13 years ago you should have been ineligible by both base salary and scarcity, until you were a senior architect in some specific niche and commanded a greater base salary Or on a different work visa Exhibit a b and c I’m not saying you aren’t supposed to be here, I’m saying fix that program. The US shouldn’t be training talent and kicking them out. We should be training and keeping talent. H1B doesn’t do that well either.

intermerda 9mo ago

[flagged]

calculatte 9mo ago
[flagged]
arresin 9mo ago
This is such bizarre sick talk. Only in the west do we suffer this. It’s really weird and a holdover from a really strange time in the 60-70s.

nis0s 9mo ago

I am looking at the problem from a population and industry level, and so my apologies if I am not looking at it from the individual’s perspective. The first issue which stands out to me is that the world at-large doesn’t create enough jobs in industries where highly-skilled Western educated workers can work. In fact, low-skilled Western educated workers don’t have many prospects at a global stage either. So Western-educated workers (either immigrants or citizens) are stuck in Western nations due to several factors, including pay ranges, work conditions, and quality of life reasons, like access to a clean and safe environment, or a working justice system. The quality of life reasons and pay ranges are the main attractors for immigrants as well, which is why some nation-state economies have remittances as a key component of their GDP. On top of that, some nations have sacrificed building an education and employment infrastructure in favor of building what are essentially factories for producing workers for Western nations. This also has the side effect of keeping the quality of life of these countries suppressed because people who would voice the most discontent simply leave. So, I’d say the second reason immigration visas need a more nuanced approach is because they hurt the development of other countries, unless those countries set up remittances or job contract pipelines. But even so, there’s no guarantee that the baseline quality of life will improve even as GDP sky rockets. If you look at where people work, and how they’re the happiest working, it’s when they can find something modest which affords them a reasonable quality of life in their local environment. Great examples of this include many East Asian and Northern European countries. The key difference here is that these countries prioritize building benefits for their populations via education and workforce training and development. Unlucky people in any country will hope to immigrate to change that aspect of their life, which is a failure on the part of their home nation, not the individual. Some nations have prioritized infiltration of large cap Western companies primarily for strategic geopolitical reasons, and that’s the third reason why I think immigration visas need a more nuanced approach. Lastly (because I am secretly an idealist), I’d like large cap companies to be responsible with the great power they wield. Large cap companies have a global reach, and so can upset the local economies of any country by interfering with the work of small to medium sized businesses. Imagine if Google decides that it will set up shop in South Africa because the U.S. curtails all H1B hiring. Some people in South Africa will benefit, but the overall effect will be that the majority of the population will desire to shift its behavior so the individual can work at the best possible economic opportunity. While that sounds like an ideal scenario to a Western-educated liberal, consider that many businesses in local communities will lose out on potential high-skilled workers. The ecosystem of workforce development and employment needs to balanced against community development. Large cap companies subvert the function of local communities by shifting the calculus to economic optimization, whereas healthy and thriving communities have other goals as well. Populations as a whole have lost sense of purpose because the main reason most people work is so that they can stop working. But globalization perverted that mindset by prioritizing the needs of large corporations over the needs of local communities. People still want to stop working, but they don’t know how to reach that goal. This problem exists because more than half the countries in the world have sacrificed their own development in favor of developing workers for large cap companies in Western countries. Bit of a hastily typed ramble, but I hope the gist of it is clear enough.