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> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and ov

by ceejayoz 10mo ago

> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and over, expanding the area each time, so people never stop having to evacuate, or give up and stay in place to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o "More than three-quarters of Gaza's territory have been designated as evacuation zones by the Israeli military since the war against Hamas began in October, an analysis by BBC Arabic has found." At a certain point, it becomes plain old ethnic cleansing.

tguvot 10mo ago
so not genocide ? "doing it over and over again", you mean war moves around and not restricted to same 1 square kilometer. and what kind of ethnic cleansing it is, if all population remains in gaza. the trick is, to shift goalposts. if you bomb city with population: genocide. if you order people to evacuate it's ethnic cleansing. if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago.
- ceejayoz 10mo ago
  There's no single agreed upon definition. Many of them include ethnic cleansing as a form, using wording like "the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions > if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago. Gaza saw 90% displaced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Armenians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_... says 99%. With 288 deaths, versus at least 60k in Gaza. I'm inclined to see them both as ethnic cleansing? And shitty?
  - tguvot 10mo ago
    here we go. you finally used (by mistake, but we won't count this against you) appropriate verb: "displaced". population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. While on the other side population of Nagorno Karabakh was ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh and had to leave to Armenia.
    - ceejayoz 10mo ago
      > population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza) They have been ethnically cleansed from 53% of the territory thus far.
      - tguvot 10mo ago
        a) they were not ethnically cleansed. even article says "displaced". this is what usually called "internally displaced". My relatives in Ukraine are "internally displaced". There was also 500k Israeli that were internally displaced during war. b) most of cities/population in gaza is west of yellow line d) CMCC is currently developing protocols for how to let population move east of yellow line (while preventing militants doing so), because this is where international community starts reconstruction efforts and where ISF will be deployed
FunnyUsername 10mo ago
How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Ethnic cleaning also wouldn't imply genocide anyway.
- ceejayoz 10mo ago
  > How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? > By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?
  - FunnyUsername 10mo ago
    > So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? I suppose you have a point, my framing was off. But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area is much closer to a fire evacuation than a ghetto where residents are broadly denied freedom of movement. > Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation? Neither did. IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. Jews would have been asked to leave just like anyone else, had they not already been ethnically cleansed from Gaza in 2005.
    - ceejayoz 10mo ago
      > But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area… "Hey, there's a murderer around here, be careful!" - Jeffrey Dahmer > IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. I didn't say skin color.
      - FunnyUsername 10mo ago
        How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas? The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.

tguvot 10mo ago

so not genocide ? "doing it over and over again", you mean war moves around and not restricted to same 1 square kilometer. and what kind of ethnic cleansing it is, if all population remains in gaza. the trick is, to shift goalposts. if you bomb city with population: genocide. if you order people to evacuate it's ethnic cleansing. if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago.

ceejayoz 10mo ago
There's no single agreed upon definition. Many of them include ethnic cleansing as a form, using wording like "the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions > if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago. Gaza saw 90% displaced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Armenians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_... says 99%. With 288 deaths, versus at least 60k in Gaza. I'm inclined to see them both as ethnic cleansing? And shitty?
- tguvot 10mo ago
  here we go. you finally used (by mistake, but we won't count this against you) appropriate verb: "displaced". population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. While on the other side population of Nagorno Karabakh was ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh and had to leave to Armenia.
  - ceejayoz 10mo ago
    > population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza) They have been ethnically cleansed from 53% of the territory thus far.
    - tguvot 10mo ago
      a) they were not ethnically cleansed. even article says "displaced". this is what usually called "internally displaced". My relatives in Ukraine are "internally displaced". There was also 500k Israeli that were internally displaced during war. b) most of cities/population in gaza is west of yellow line d) CMCC is currently developing protocols for how to let population move east of yellow line (while preventing militants doing so), because this is where international community starts reconstruction efforts and where ISF will be deployed

FunnyUsername 10mo ago

How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Ethnic cleaning also wouldn't imply genocide anyway.

ceejayoz 10mo ago
> How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? > By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?
- FunnyUsername 10mo ago
  > So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? I suppose you have a point, my framing was off. But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area is much closer to a fire evacuation than a ghetto where residents are broadly denied freedom of movement. > Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation? Neither did. IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. Jews would have been asked to leave just like anyone else, had they not already been ethnically cleansed from Gaza in 2005.
  - ceejayoz 10mo ago
    > But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area… "Hey, there's a murderer around here, be careful!" - Jeffrey Dahmer > IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. I didn't say skin color.
    - FunnyUsername 10mo ago
      How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas? The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.