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Most people in the US begin life poor, and most of them are not poor forever. I wouldn't call this a "bleak future". I was definitely poor when I was 18, but I

Most people in the US begin life poor, and most of them are not poor forever. I wouldn't call this a "bleak future". I was definitely poor when I was 18, but I wasn't pessimistic. Pessimism at such a young age is almost always a mistake.

lukan 10mo ago
"Pessimism at such a young age is almost always a mistake." Is pessimism a consciouss choice?
- hn_go_brrrrr 10mo ago
  You can develop pessimism without a conscious choice, but once you become aware of how negative your outlook is, it's a conscious choice to not try to do better.
  - bigbadfeline 10mo ago
    Being pessimistic about pessimism is individual-damaging and socially ruinous. One can develop pessimism about pessimism without a conscious choice, but once you become aware of how negative your outlook on pessimism is, it's a conscious choice to not try to figure out the different meanings of that word and how important it is for the proper functioning of democracy. Maybe read Orwell for a glimpse of mandatory optimism: "The Ministry of Love was the really frightening one... Winston turned round abruptly. He had set his features into the expression of quiet optimism which it was advisable to wear when facing the telescreen.
- artur_makly 10mo ago
  with some it's an celebrated lifestyle: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPCJpclgW04/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPCJpclgW04/
- tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
  Indeed most choices we think we "make" are unconscious choices due to our environment. That does not mean we cannot introspect and learn and consciously change them. I am much more pessimistic generally than I was 20 years ago. But that's something I work on, not something I accept passively as a fact of life.
- carlosjobim 10mo ago
  Yes. It is mostly because of environment, and you can change your environment.
overfeed 10mo ago
> Most people in the US begin life poor, and most of them are not poor forever Thank heavens young Americans can look forward to a $63k/year median income when they are employed full-time.
lbrito 10mo ago
Social mobility is decreasing since the 1980s. This is increasingly closer to not being true anymore.
- tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
  Yes it has decreased from an amazingly high level to only a reasonably good level compared to most of the world's population. This is no reason for abject pessimism at 18 years old.
  - lbrito 10mo ago
    I'd like to challenge that. Historical comparisons aside, looking just at today, if you're saying that social mobility is very good in the USA compared to most of the world, what are you basing that claim on? I would think something like Gini combined with HDI and GDP per capita, on which the US only fares well on the latter. I found out there is something called Global Social Mobility Index, done by the WEF, and it places the US in 27th.
    - tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
      I'm basing on my assumption vast majority of the world's people would love to be 27th. And this is borne out in emigration patterns and visa applications... It feels like we expect to be #1 in every category and we're unable to recognize that the US has it pretty damn good in a lot of important ways. Envy is the thief of happiness.
    - tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
      Also looking a bit more at the GSMI: a lot of those criteria are based on current social welfare benefits received by the population. Many of which programs are not sustainable in the long run. Of course the US has less of a social safety net than Norway, a petrostate with trillions of dollars in a national oil endowment, and ~half of their GDP is from fossil fuels. I don't know that I'd want to move to Norway for the kind of "social mobility" that I'm after.
layer8 10mo ago
Or maybe it’s just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism.

lukan 10mo ago

"Pessimism at such a young age is almost always a mistake." Is pessimism a consciouss choice?

hn_go_brrrrr 10mo ago
You can develop pessimism without a conscious choice, but once you become aware of how negative your outlook is, it's a conscious choice to not try to do better.
- bigbadfeline 10mo ago
  Being pessimistic about pessimism is individual-damaging and socially ruinous. One can develop pessimism about pessimism without a conscious choice, but once you become aware of how negative your outlook on pessimism is, it's a conscious choice to not try to figure out the different meanings of that word and how important it is for the proper functioning of democracy. Maybe read Orwell for a glimpse of mandatory optimism: "The Ministry of Love was the really frightening one... Winston turned round abruptly. He had set his features into the expression of quiet optimism which it was advisable to wear when facing the telescreen.
artur_makly 10mo ago
with some it's an celebrated lifestyle: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPCJpclgW04/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPCJpclgW04/
tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
Indeed most choices we think we "make" are unconscious choices due to our environment. That does not mean we cannot introspect and learn and consciously change them. I am much more pessimistic generally than I was 20 years ago. But that's something I work on, not something I accept passively as a fact of life.
carlosjobim 10mo ago
Yes. It is mostly because of environment, and you can change your environment.

overfeed 10mo ago

> Most people in the US begin life poor, and most of them are not poor forever Thank heavens young Americans can look forward to a $63k/year median income when they are employed full-time.

lbrito 10mo ago

Social mobility is decreasing since the 1980s. This is increasingly closer to not being true anymore.

tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
Yes it has decreased from an amazingly high level to only a reasonably good level compared to most of the world's population. This is no reason for abject pessimism at 18 years old.
- lbrito 10mo ago
  I'd like to challenge that. Historical comparisons aside, looking just at today, if you're saying that social mobility is very good in the USA compared to most of the world, what are you basing that claim on? I would think something like Gini combined with HDI and GDP per capita, on which the US only fares well on the latter. I found out there is something called Global Social Mobility Index, done by the WEF, and it places the US in 27th.
  - tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
    I'm basing on my assumption vast majority of the world's people would love to be 27th. And this is borne out in emigration patterns and visa applications... It feels like we expect to be #1 in every category and we're unable to recognize that the US has it pretty damn good in a lot of important ways. Envy is the thief of happiness.
  - tjwebbnorfolk 10mo ago
    Also looking a bit more at the GSMI: a lot of those criteria are based on current social welfare benefits received by the population. Many of which programs are not sustainable in the long run. Of course the US has less of a social safety net than Norway, a petrostate with trillions of dollars in a national oil endowment, and ~half of their GDP is from fossil fuels. I don't know that I'd want to move to Norway for the kind of "social mobility" that I'm after.

layer8 10mo ago

Or maybe it’s just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism.