4 ms·

We have the same problem where I live in the US. When I get some free time I'm going to lobby our state congress to have the sale of them banned, because it's t

by throwway120385 10mo ago

We have the same problem where I live in the US. When I get some free time I'm going to lobby our state congress to have the sale of them banned, because it's the only way to get people to stop installing them. There is a law against driving them but it's impossible to enforce because there's no means of measuring the sound and associating it with the vehicle quickly enough to enforce it. I'd love to have an ALPR system that localizes the noise and snaps a picture of the plate and vehicle and sends them a ticket in the mail.

pc86 10mo ago
Noise enforcement is a normal thing in areas that want to enforce it. It happens exactly the same way speed enforcement happens, the officer has a device that measures it and can present that information in court if the other party disputes it. The problem for both noise and speed enforcement is entirely a problem of will. Some jurisdictions simply don't care, or just do targeted enforcement to drive revenue but not actually change driving habits. Do any driving around the country and you'll see areas where people regularly drive 20mph over the speed limit and areas where people barely go 5 over.
pbmonster 10mo ago
German police have a what amounts to a dyno mounted on a truck bed, and they pull over suspicious cars and sound check them while an officer goes through the gears on the dyno. Failing that test is expensive, and you don't see your car again for a few weeks. They revoke your permission to operate the vehicle on public roads, so in addition to the fine, you face fees (towing, storage of car in evidence locker, towing your car to a shop after getting it back in order to make it street legal, then redoing the road-worthiness certification).
- kube-system 10mo ago
  Police in the US can just give people a faulty equipment ticket based on their perception of it being too loud or visually modified. But you are not likely to see this enforced outside of rich quiet neighborhoods where police don't have anything better to attend to. Culturally, sentiment in the US does not want the law coming down hard on drivers and their vehicles. For instance, most US states do not even require vehicles to be safety inspected. And in urban areas the police have worse infractions to be going after.
- mothballed 10mo ago
  Ah yes, nothing quiets the streets like the police literally running a damn dyno roadside on an elevated platform for the loudest vehicles they think they can find, which by itself would likely also make the police violators of the law since they are the one operating the vehicle in public at the time of the sound infraction they have induced.
  - kube-system 10mo ago
    Noise control laws typically exempt law enforcement and first responders, for obvious reasons. e.g. their vehicles have devices installed that are intentionally noisy: sirens.
  - yetihehe 10mo ago
    > Ah yes, nothing quiets the streets like the police literally running a damn dyno It would be bad only if it didn't result in decrease of loud vehicles. If they run the dyno and impound vehicle, it means that this loud vehicle won't be coming back this street for some time.
    - mothballed 10mo ago
      If the police take my car and make loud noises with it, all that means is the police can potentially make loud noises with my car. Not that I personally made loud noises. The only provable noise polluter in that case is the police. I'm sure they could also put my car on a dyno and prove it could go 100mph on the 30mph street I was on too.
      - altairprime 10mo ago
        Presumably for a car to be sold from factory and registered by owner as street legal in Germany, it must not be able to make loud noises under reasonable operation — specifically, driven like someone would drive a car (up to 100% throttle, up to redline rpm) but not attempting to maliciously create problems (fuzzing the pedal inputs for backfire scenarios from factory). If the police are able to reasonably operate it on a dyno to create an illegal condition, then either it has a mechanical defect, an owner modification, or a design defect; and in all three cases, the vehicle would presumably therefore not be street legal, as proven on the roadside dyno. The loophole you’re describing wouldn’t hold up in front of a judge anywhere at first glance: “I don’t ever push the gas pedal that far down in my fancy sports car designed/modded to accelerate loudly when I push the gas pedal that far down” is not a particularly convincing argument when one is found to be operating said vehicle. A more convincing argument would be, “the pedal inputs by the police were improper for operation of a vehicle and do not conform to the training given to roadside dyno operators”; and, presumably dyno logs and body cam of the operator are available to defeat that as well. And arguing that the training itself is improperly having police operate the vehicle through all factory-provided regimes would almost certainly fail (even in the U.S. were such roadside dynos a thing here!), but if your case was that the training needs to be improved in a specific way rather than for termination of the roadside dyno program, you might get traction with that. One assumes this process is generally reserved for vehicles whose driving has earned them a dyno inspection, as it would induce mockery were they to e.g. dyno an old beaten-up Geo Metro without cause, and that the fines are directed towards either the vehicle owner and/or manufacturer, as circumstances require, as the responsible parties for its mechanical-design and/or aftermarket-modded violations of the law. (I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice.)
mc32 10mo ago
Some of the most annoying offenders are motorbikes who almost see it as an obligation to revv as annoyingly as possible every chance they get on residential neighborhoods. It’s not all of them. Some ride responsibly but my god, some are extremely good at being the most annoying human beings on earth.
potato3732842 10mo ago
This is such a bad idea I don't know if you're serious, or if you're satirizing these kinds of people or an accelerationist looking to burn down the credibility of your state legislature. The right thing to do is to ban their use on a local level pursuant to some specific criteria is one thing (as many municipalities do, and Portland took a step further by doing categorically city wide). To ban their sale (but not use, are you kidding?) state wide is a great example of not only crap law, but the exact sort of minutia that the state level government should not be regulating and is necessarily proceeded by the sort of evil "I know best, damn the exceptions" world view that underpins much of the bad policy that sours people on the same institutions you are trying to use to solve what you perceive to be problems.
- iamnothere 10mo ago
  Not to mention that these are often DIY mod jobs, so banning the sale of what? Generic car parts? Steel tubing? Welders?
cmxch 10mo ago
I’d love to see it get smacked down in the courts.
altairprime 10mo ago
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60583398/nyc-noise-camera-loud-exhaust-case/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60583398/nyc-noise-camera... NYC installed these. Turns out with a city noise limit of 76 and ticketing those in excess of 84dBa, that you’ll ticket certain street ‘legal’ cars whose noise levels can reach into the 90s (!) if driven improperly in-city. Always glad to see technology progressing; I hope it spreads elsewhere.
- 4d4m 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Gibbon1 10mo ago
    My Prius isn't boring the way I drive it honey.
    - 4d4m 9mo ago
      You literally made my point.
  - infecto 10mo ago
    Nope there is a difference between a modified exhaust and a straight pipes or more commonly a tuned ecu that causes after fire. It can be quite loud, pretty darn close to gun shot level and is a disruptive. If you like it go take your car to a track.
    - 4d4m 9mo ago
      There are MANY factory production vehicles with exhausts above the DB limits for what is considered legal by municipalities and states. Is the onus on the consumer for buying these or on the manufacturer? Or are these laws asinine when they don't apply to horns, trains, construction sites and other noise-emitters? As a fellow vehicle customization enthusiast you have the flexibility to do what you want for snaps, crackles and pops up to the limit of what is deemed acceptable by your locality. It's not like a blanket ban is going to fix the behavior of people that mod their cars. I don't personally add after-fire to ECU tunings but they are popular in the bimmer community - what harm are these people causing that motorcyclists aren't? I got the answer: it's easy to target car modders and sports/supercars because those who don't drive them are petty + jealous.
davidbanham 10mo ago
It’s a pretty solved problem. In NSW, Australia we have automated systems for heavy vehicle noise fines. (They could of course be used for regular vehicles as well, we just don’t) For all vehicles the police can issue a defect notice to anything that seems too loud. The owner then has to present to an inspection station and prove that they’re compliant. If they don’t show up or don’t test as compliant their registration is voided and they’re fined. Of course, they can remove the modification before visiting the induction station then reinstall it afterwards, but that gets pretty time consuming pretty fast and people largely stay within the bounds of reason as a result. The system isn’t perfect but it works fine.

pc86 10mo ago

Noise enforcement is a normal thing in areas that want to enforce it. It happens exactly the same way speed enforcement happens, the officer has a device that measures it and can present that information in court if the other party disputes it. The problem for both noise and speed enforcement is entirely a problem of will. Some jurisdictions simply don't care, or just do targeted enforcement to drive revenue but not actually change driving habits. Do any driving around the country and you'll see areas where people regularly drive 20mph over the speed limit and areas where people barely go 5 over.

pbmonster 10mo ago

German police have a what amounts to a dyno mounted on a truck bed, and they pull over suspicious cars and sound check them while an officer goes through the gears on the dyno. Failing that test is expensive, and you don't see your car again for a few weeks. They revoke your permission to operate the vehicle on public roads, so in addition to the fine, you face fees (towing, storage of car in evidence locker, towing your car to a shop after getting it back in order to make it street legal, then redoing the road-worthiness certification).

kube-system 10mo ago
Police in the US can just give people a faulty equipment ticket based on their perception of it being too loud or visually modified. But you are not likely to see this enforced outside of rich quiet neighborhoods where police don't have anything better to attend to. Culturally, sentiment in the US does not want the law coming down hard on drivers and their vehicles. For instance, most US states do not even require vehicles to be safety inspected. And in urban areas the police have worse infractions to be going after.
mothballed 10mo ago
Ah yes, nothing quiets the streets like the police literally running a damn dyno roadside on an elevated platform for the loudest vehicles they think they can find, which by itself would likely also make the police violators of the law since they are the one operating the vehicle in public at the time of the sound infraction they have induced.
- kube-system 10mo ago
  Noise control laws typically exempt law enforcement and first responders, for obvious reasons. e.g. their vehicles have devices installed that are intentionally noisy: sirens.
- yetihehe 10mo ago
  > Ah yes, nothing quiets the streets like the police literally running a damn dyno It would be bad only if it didn't result in decrease of loud vehicles. If they run the dyno and impound vehicle, it means that this loud vehicle won't be coming back this street for some time.
  - mothballed 10mo ago
    If the police take my car and make loud noises with it, all that means is the police can potentially make loud noises with my car. Not that I personally made loud noises. The only provable noise polluter in that case is the police. I'm sure they could also put my car on a dyno and prove it could go 100mph on the 30mph street I was on too.
    - altairprime 10mo ago
      Presumably for a car to be sold from factory and registered by owner as street legal in Germany, it must not be able to make loud noises under reasonable operation — specifically, driven like someone would drive a car (up to 100% throttle, up to redline rpm) but not attempting to maliciously create problems (fuzzing the pedal inputs for backfire scenarios from factory). If the police are able to reasonably operate it on a dyno to create an illegal condition, then either it has a mechanical defect, an owner modification, or a design defect; and in all three cases, the vehicle would presumably therefore not be street legal, as proven on the roadside dyno. The loophole you’re describing wouldn’t hold up in front of a judge anywhere at first glance: “I don’t ever push the gas pedal that far down in my fancy sports car designed/modded to accelerate loudly when I push the gas pedal that far down” is not a particularly convincing argument when one is found to be operating said vehicle. A more convincing argument would be, “the pedal inputs by the police were improper for operation of a vehicle and do not conform to the training given to roadside dyno operators”; and, presumably dyno logs and body cam of the operator are available to defeat that as well. And arguing that the training itself is improperly having police operate the vehicle through all factory-provided regimes would almost certainly fail (even in the U.S. were such roadside dynos a thing here!), but if your case was that the training needs to be improved in a specific way rather than for termination of the roadside dyno program, you might get traction with that. One assumes this process is generally reserved for vehicles whose driving has earned them a dyno inspection, as it would induce mockery were they to e.g. dyno an old beaten-up Geo Metro without cause, and that the fines are directed towards either the vehicle owner and/or manufacturer, as circumstances require, as the responsible parties for its mechanical-design and/or aftermarket-modded violations of the law. (I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice.)

mc32 10mo ago

Some of the most annoying offenders are motorbikes who almost see it as an obligation to revv as annoyingly as possible every chance they get on residential neighborhoods. It’s not all of them. Some ride responsibly but my god, some are extremely good at being the most annoying human beings on earth.

potato3732842 10mo ago

This is such a bad idea I don't know if you're serious, or if you're satirizing these kinds of people or an accelerationist looking to burn down the credibility of your state legislature. The right thing to do is to ban their use on a local level pursuant to some specific criteria is one thing (as many municipalities do, and Portland took a step further by doing categorically city wide). To ban their sale (but not use, are you kidding?) state wide is a great example of not only crap law, but the exact sort of minutia that the state level government should not be regulating and is necessarily proceeded by the sort of evil "I know best, damn the exceptions" world view that underpins much of the bad policy that sours people on the same institutions you are trying to use to solve what you perceive to be problems.

iamnothere 10mo ago
Not to mention that these are often DIY mod jobs, so banning the sale of what? Generic car parts? Steel tubing? Welders?

cmxch 10mo ago

I’d love to see it get smacked down in the courts.

altairprime 10mo ago

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60583398/nyc-noise-camera-loud-exhaust-case/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60583398/nyc-noise-camera... NYC installed these. Turns out with a city noise limit of 76 and ticketing those in excess of 84dBa, that you’ll ticket certain street ‘legal’ cars whose noise levels can reach into the 90s (!) if driven improperly in-city. Always glad to see technology progressing; I hope it spreads elsewhere.

4d4m 10mo ago
[flagged]
- Gibbon1 10mo ago
  My Prius isn't boring the way I drive it honey.
  - 4d4m 9mo ago
    You literally made my point.
- infecto 10mo ago
  Nope there is a difference between a modified exhaust and a straight pipes or more commonly a tuned ecu that causes after fire. It can be quite loud, pretty darn close to gun shot level and is a disruptive. If you like it go take your car to a track.
  - 4d4m 9mo ago
    There are MANY factory production vehicles with exhausts above the DB limits for what is considered legal by municipalities and states. Is the onus on the consumer for buying these or on the manufacturer? Or are these laws asinine when they don't apply to horns, trains, construction sites and other noise-emitters? As a fellow vehicle customization enthusiast you have the flexibility to do what you want for snaps, crackles and pops up to the limit of what is deemed acceptable by your locality. It's not like a blanket ban is going to fix the behavior of people that mod their cars. I don't personally add after-fire to ECU tunings but they are popular in the bimmer community - what harm are these people causing that motorcyclists aren't? I got the answer: it's easy to target car modders and sports/supercars because those who don't drive them are petty + jealous.

davidbanham 10mo ago

It’s a pretty solved problem. In NSW, Australia we have automated systems for heavy vehicle noise fines. (They could of course be used for regular vehicles as well, we just don’t) For all vehicles the police can issue a defect notice to anything that seems too loud. The owner then has to present to an inspection station and prove that they’re compliant. If they don’t show up or don’t test as compliant their registration is voided and they’re fined. Of course, they can remove the modification before visiting the induction station then reinstall it afterwards, but that gets pretty time consuming pretty fast and people largely stay within the bounds of reason as a result. The system isn’t perfect but it works fine.