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> If the EU repeals Article 6 of the Copyright Directive, some smart geeks in Finland could reverse-engineer Apple's bootloaders and make a hardware dongle that
by pu_pe 10mo ago
> If the EU repeals Article 6 of the Copyright Directive, some smart geeks in Finland could reverse-engineer Apple's bootloaders and make a hardware dongle that jailbreaks phones so that they can use alternative app stores
Apple could easily block this, and in the situation described here of a complete rupture with the US, they would no longer operate and sell phones in the EU. If Google decided to do the same, that essentially leaves Europeans without smartphones. Microsoft could "brick" the rest of the EU's digital infrastructure overnight if they so wished, or were compelled to do so.
This makes the transition described in the article much more difficult. Although likely more urgent, from an European perspective.
- sschueller 10mo agoASML could also "brick" their machines running in the US.
- tonyhart7 10mo agono
- dxdm 10mo agoExplain?
- ggm 10mo agoIt's a joint venture with US companies. We talk about it as purely European, but it's not.
- ben_w 10mo agoGiven this thread, imagine a complete rupture of relations between US and EU such that US orders US companies to stop supplying hardware or services to EU. In this scenario, I don't think it is correct to consider normal business relations, rather "is it *materially* possible?"
- lostlogin 10mo ago> Given this thread, imagine a complete rupture of relations between US and EU A Greenland invasion might lead to that. It’s such ridiculous thing to suggest as a trigger, but here we are.
- amarcheschi 10mo ago>It’s such ridiculous thing to suggest as a trigger Not anymore, unfortunately
- ben_w 10mo agoIn fairness, we all ridiculing Trump for choosing this hill to die on. (Along with several other ridiculous hills simultaneously, stretching the metaphor to breaking point).
- tonyhart7 10mo agothere is a reason why US can force ASML to stop selling its machine to China learn EUV technology history first, it originated from US department of energy research program, because of cost Gov decided to halt it but multiple private company take over the development but US Gov still hold a patent/license from that technology
- sschueller 10mo ago> patent/license Which are enforced by international agreements. At some point those don't matter anymore either and is also the point of the article. Also Zeiss a Germany company is the only one that can make the optics required.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- tonyhart7 10mo ago"Which are enforced by international agreements. At some point those don't matter anymore either" and whose in charge of international agreements between US and Netherlands ??? I think you mix up between who in power here also stop acting like ASML netherland produce the EUV machine, its not lol ASML US branch actually produce more parts, so if EU want to cut off the US then they also self sabotage themselves since 50%+ machine for Giant EUV is happening at US soil
- evrenesat 10mo agoIf putin, then trump and their people agreed on that we are no longer living in a rule based world, patents, licences etc. would hold little value. Realpolitik of the globe will kick everyone's ass.
- tonyhart7 10mo agoUS let Russia take a chunk of ukraine and China and Russia to certain extend let US control its own hemisphere just eat up that some major power always playing geo-politic war games that exert its influences they maybe have a friction and want to mess with each other but the domain of influence is always there and they generally dont want to cross the line for it
- PeterStuer 10mo agoASML is considered 'strategic' and its freedom to operate is significantly constrained by international politics, specifically US-led efforts to limit China's access to advanced semiconductor technology. The Dutch government, under pressure from the United States, has implemented and tightened export license requirements for various ASML products destined for China, including both advanced EUV and some older-generation DUV machines. These controls are tied to US export administration regulations, as some components and underlying technology in ASML machines are of US origin, giving the US jurisdiction. The company must comply with US law, which has led to actions such as rejecting job applications from nationals of sanctioned countries. Besides this, do you really think ASML's major shareholders, Capital Research and Management Company, Blackrock, Vanguard, would support a board that would consider 'bricking' US machines?
- tick_tock_tick 10mo agoThe USA basically owns ASML since they invented the tech it's why they have to ask the USA congress permission to do stuff.
- Cthulhu_ 10mo ago? EUV lithography was an international undertaking, some US research projects sure, but also Japanese (Hiroo Kinoshita, 80's), Russian (Georgiy Vaschenko, who is on all the patents for the 13.5 nm laser used (https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Georgiy+Vaschenko https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Georgiy+Vaschenko)), Dutch (of course), etc. It's kind of ironic to think of a company as state controlled by the US given how anti-state-controlled the US can be when it comes to companies. ASML has majority shareholders in US companies like Intel and co, but that doesn't mean the US government has a say in it. I mean they do because of international politics - just like the Dutch government has a say in things - but still.
- yuchtman 10mo agoThe idea of Apple and/or Google just stop selling phones in the EU seems ... unlikely. A quick search tells me something between a fourth and a third of Apple revenue is in the EU, you really think they'd just stop selling in the EU? Gotta also remember, that even if the EU would allow this, your average phone user would not use it. Just like your average phone user doesn't root their android smartphone or installs Lineage/Graphene/eOS/whatever. Even if it were made easier (or possible) for more phones, the vast majority would not use it and Apple and Google would still make a lot of money.
- jryb 10mo agoBut in the proposed scenario, there wouldn’t be any technical hurdles or effort required by the phone’s owner - you could have this be a service offered by businesses. Maybe even the place that sells the phone would pre-jailbreak it for you.
- scotty79 10mo ago> Apple could easily block this, and in the situation described here of a complete rupture with the US, they would no longer operate and sell phones in the EU. If Google decided to do the same, that essentially leaves Europeans without smartphones. Microsoft could "brick" the rest of the EU's digital infrastructure overnight if they so wished, or were compelled to do so. All the more reasons to go scorched earth on American companies. There's a point in every blackmail where the only way forward is through.
- flumpcakes 10mo agoI think this is partly why the EU is trying to invest in native semiconductor technologies/companies Which is strange, because usually the EU doesn't make strategic moves like this (compare it to China, where nearly every thing it does is strategic).
- dleeftink 10mo agoIn case bricks will be thrown, the response from the receiving party will likely skew to the argument presented here--circumvention of technical locks. You'd catch the brick, sand it and repurpose so it'll fit your home.
- atherton94027 10mo agoSure this could happen but that seems like a very last resort. The only reason the US economy is still competitive is tech stocks so cutting off ~35% of your income seem like it would cause a lot of downstream effects
- nottorp 10mo ago> that essentially leaves Europeans without smartphones ... for about 20 minutes before China steps in. Or Samsung with de Googled Android models.
- delis-thumbs-7e 10mo agoOr maybe… Finland? There is linux phones already, so perhaps Apple and Google f-king off might not be a bad thing.
- nottorp 10mo agoThe new Nokias are Android with Google services afaik. It may take a bit to de google them and take out all the non open source parts out of the OS.
- delis-thumbs-7e 10mo agoI was refering to Jolla and Sailfish OS. They have a new phone coming up, or already did.
- eloisant 10mo agoThat would be Jolla, a Finnish phone company that I think was founded by ex-Nokia employees.
- bigfishrunning 10mo agoLol thank God there are so many companies outside of Europe producing technology
- spiritplumber 10mo agoThe EU is a bigger market than the US when it comes to smartphones. So Apple would block this about as much as they would block moving over to USB-C.
- ben_w 10mo agoMicrosoft, yes and that would be catastrophic. For security quality reasons, I hope Apple have made that suggestion impossible, but for law enforcement reasons I doubt it and anticipate a backdoor exists. Google wouldn't block enough of Android to matter: Core is open source, EU forks/alternatives are likely already under development, and even if not a complete rupture with the US also likely means rapidly getting comfortable with China despite everything, and China already have Android forks. However, Google docs/sheets/etc are a common business alternative to Microsoft, and therefore such a transatlantic rupture also cuts that. FWIW, I've never encountered a business using LibreOffice etc.
- boudin 10mo agoSecurity is a fallacy here because, being a US company, it is technically not secured by default as it has backdoors (or one has to assume it has backdoors and those cannot even be audited). Then it is just about the sense of security which is based on the threat model you consider threatening to you. You do not chose who you are the enemy of though and in fascist countries with no regards to the rule of law like the USA, this becomes a fairly important threat model to take into account. Libreoffice is used quite a bit in administrations across EU. I would expect more stickiness to microsoft caused by legacy applications that requires windows to run rather than office.
- flumpcakes 10mo agoWhat I think most US people don't realise, is this would overnight start the slow but complete collapse of the US and it's economy. Europe can make alternatives to US tech, and with it's track record it will probably be more open with more legitimate options and less predatory monopolies. Once that is established with a home grown market of 450m people it will start competing with US in all the other markets. Let's not forgot how many EU people work for US tech.
- silvestrov 10mo agoThe easy part of a smartphone to create for EU is the part that is done in the US. The difficult part is the hardware. That is also why the iPhone is produced in Asia. Replacing TSMC is much more difficult than the software.
- blell 10mo agoCreating good smartphone software is not easy. Only Apple has achieved it. Google is close. The rest are so far behind in the race they think they are leading.
- lxgr 10mo agoBecause there was arguably no need for a third option. The current duopoly only exists because it was seen as risk-free, and propping up an alternative was seen as uneconomical. > Creating good smartphone software is not easy. Yes, but it's not rocket science either (and even if it were, the EU has both rocket scientists and a space port). Maybe it's been too long for people to even imagine it, but European companies were fully capable of developing a smartphone OS and running an app certification platform (there were no app stores yet, as the industry was very fragmented) less than two decades ago.
- VorpalWay 10mo agoAndroid is open source (decreasingly, but still). A reasonable starting point would be forking it and adding replacements for the proprietary Google Play services, app store etc. Gobally Android also has a much larger market share than Apple. (Yes the US is the opposite, it is an outlier.)
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- TrackerFF 10mo agoWell, two issues here: 1) The moment US decides to completely exit EU and brick their devices, China will step in and provide the alternatives. Or it will trigger some tech arms race inside Europe, and we will see European providers rise up. 2) US Tech companies can't afford to pull out. They might do some short-lived performative black-outs to show European customers how dependent they are, and they will for sure run to the government, who in turn will start trade wars. But in the end they simply can't afford to just pull out completely. As others have mentioned, not only is it a danger to their own revenue, but the US stock market is being carried by these tech companies. The US has always profited the most from providing products / services which are better and cheaper to Europe, to such a degree that organic growth has been naturally suppressed. Necessity is the mother of invention.
- general1465 9mo ago> 2) US Tech companies can't afford to pull out. They might do some short-lived performative black-outs to show European customers how dependent they are, and they will for sure run to the government, who in turn will start trade wars. But in the end they simply can't afford to just pull out completely. Yep, case and point is current situation in Russia, where US companies "pulled" out due to sanctions, but not really.
- Cthulhu_ 10mo agoNot only that, but also... only a small percentage of people actually wants this and / or would do this, the vast majority of consumers doesn't mess with their stuff even if they could. Same with the alternative app store support, it reminds me of when the EU mandated Microsoft to offer a Windows without Media Player. It didn't sell, because consumers don't actually care much - Media Player wasn't obnoxiously in the way.