4 ms·

A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

12 points by duxup 10mo ago

duxup 10mo ago
Gift link https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/30/magazine/maga-israel-antisemitism-tucker-carlson.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CVA.mzTm.JECXU4-hRzxT&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/30/magazine/maga-israel-anti...
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
elbci 10mo ago
Ah, NYT... it's years since I read anything in legacy MSM but it all came back now... the wall of text taking you all over the place from Truman to Candance Owen to Soviet Union, offering an unexplained explanation akin to 'religious fashions changed' and a one sentence euphemistic mention of the real issue buried towards the end: "images from Gaza" as in the ongoing genocide against Palestinians
- soldthat 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 10mo ago
    They're not a one to one isomorphic equivalence, sure. That said, war and genocide can absolutely overlap to any degree in the great Venn diagram of possibilities.
    - soldthat 10mo ago
      Sure, but the latest trend of accusing everyone you don’t like of genocide is diluting the meaning to cover anything “they” do.
      - defrost 10mo ago
        > Sure, but the latest trend of accusing everyone you don’t like of genocide Personally I only pay attention to accusations levelled against those killling significant numbers of non combatants and journalists, and made by a reasonable number of international bodies. It adds further weight when, say, you have experts on the Holocaust, those considered a leading authority on genocide, chime in and say that something else is also a genocide. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Bartov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Bartov That said, returning to my comment in response to yours - that was motivated by the ankle deep shallowness of a green account quip "War isn’t genocide" What exactly is that supposed to mean? That the war waged by the post Weimar Republic was not or did not include any genocide? As comments go, that seems ... vapid.
        soldthat 10mo ago
        By the criteria used against Israel every war would be a genocide. Nazi Germany was at war while also carrying out a genocide at the same time. But by the definitions used against Israel, every country that fought in WWII was committing genocide.
        defrost 10mo ago
        > By the criteria used against Israel every war would be a genocide. Nonsense. The criteria used by Jewish Holocaust and genocide scholars is typically a list of specific points not met by every war. > But by the definitions used against Israel, every country that fought in WWII was committing genocide. Also nonsense.
        soldthat 10mo ago
        A significant number of non-combatants have been killed in every single war that has had a significant number of casualties. Ever. The fantastical utopian war is Israel is expected to wage, where only militants get killed doesn’t exist. The closest thing in history we have to that is Israel’s beeper operation against Hezbollah, but that is a one-off that isn’t easily repeated.
  - elbci 10mo ago
    indeed war is when 2 armies fight each other while genocide is when unarmed civilians, women and children are murdered en masse. if residents of a ghetto say in Warsaw have access to kinetic projectiles like stones and empty bottles doesn't make them an army
    - soldthat 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - elbci 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        soldthat 10mo ago
        You said “genocide is when unarmed civilians, women and children are murdered en masse”. This is exactly what some Palestinians did on Oct 7
        elbci 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        ceejayoz 10mo ago
        > In their rabid zealotry IDF sacrifice their own reservists by placing them as human shields on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians while reclaiming their rightful land were forced to retreat but still managed to rescue some 200 of the human shields and took them under protection in Gaza. Both of you are lunatics incapable of comprehending any level of moral gray area, FFS. Oct 7 was not a genocide (and to be clear, that's not because Hamas wouldn't like to do one), and it wasn't a rescue operation.
        breppp 10mo ago
        According to Amnesty, October 7 included crimes of extermination, a worse crime than the already devalued word "Genocide", which now amounts to "war i don't like". They waited with the report two years for the war to end for reasons which aren't too surprising https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE1502822025ENGLISH.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE150...
red-iron-pine 10mo ago
I'll believe it when I see it. Right now it sounds like the only thing MAGA is tearing apart is the Western World.

12 points by duxup 10mo ago

duxup 10mo ago

Gift link https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/30/magazine/maga-israel-antisemitism-tucker-carlson.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CVA.mzTm.JECXU4-hRzxT&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/30/magazine/maga-israel-anti...

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

elbci 10mo ago

Ah, NYT... it's years since I read anything in legacy MSM but it all came back now... the wall of text taking you all over the place from Truman to Candance Owen to Soviet Union, offering an unexplained explanation akin to 'religious fashions changed' and a one sentence euphemistic mention of the real issue buried towards the end: "images from Gaza" as in the ongoing genocide against Palestinians

soldthat 10mo ago
[flagged]
- defrost 10mo ago
  They're not a one to one isomorphic equivalence, sure. That said, war and genocide can absolutely overlap to any degree in the great Venn diagram of possibilities.
  - soldthat 10mo ago
    Sure, but the latest trend of accusing everyone you don’t like of genocide is diluting the meaning to cover anything “they” do.
    - defrost 10mo ago
      > Sure, but the latest trend of accusing everyone you don’t like of genocide Personally I only pay attention to accusations levelled against those killling significant numbers of non combatants and journalists, and made by a reasonable number of international bodies. It adds further weight when, say, you have experts on the Holocaust, those considered a leading authority on genocide, chime in and say that something else is also a genocide. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Bartov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Bartov That said, returning to my comment in response to yours - that was motivated by the ankle deep shallowness of a green account quip "War isn’t genocide" What exactly is that supposed to mean? That the war waged by the post Weimar Republic was not or did not include any genocide? As comments go, that seems ... vapid.
      - soldthat 10mo ago
        By the criteria used against Israel every war would be a genocide. Nazi Germany was at war while also carrying out a genocide at the same time. But by the definitions used against Israel, every country that fought in WWII was committing genocide.
        defrost 10mo ago
        > By the criteria used against Israel every war would be a genocide. Nonsense. The criteria used by Jewish Holocaust and genocide scholars is typically a list of specific points not met by every war. > But by the definitions used against Israel, every country that fought in WWII was committing genocide. Also nonsense.
        soldthat 10mo ago
        A significant number of non-combatants have been killed in every single war that has had a significant number of casualties. Ever. The fantastical utopian war is Israel is expected to wage, where only militants get killed doesn’t exist. The closest thing in history we have to that is Israel’s beeper operation against Hezbollah, but that is a one-off that isn’t easily repeated.
- elbci 10mo ago
  indeed war is when 2 armies fight each other while genocide is when unarmed civilians, women and children are murdered en masse. if residents of a ghetto say in Warsaw have access to kinetic projectiles like stones and empty bottles doesn't make them an army
  - soldthat 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - elbci 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - soldthat 10mo ago
        You said “genocide is when unarmed civilians, women and children are murdered en masse”. This is exactly what some Palestinians did on Oct 7
        elbci 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        ceejayoz 10mo ago
        > In their rabid zealotry IDF sacrifice their own reservists by placing them as human shields on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians while reclaiming their rightful land were forced to retreat but still managed to rescue some 200 of the human shields and took them under protection in Gaza. Both of you are lunatics incapable of comprehending any level of moral gray area, FFS. Oct 7 was not a genocide (and to be clear, that's not because Hamas wouldn't like to do one), and it wasn't a rescue operation.
        breppp 10mo ago
        According to Amnesty, October 7 included crimes of extermination, a worse crime than the already devalued word "Genocide", which now amounts to "war i don't like". They waited with the report two years for the war to end for reasons which aren't too surprising https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE1502822025ENGLISH.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE150...

red-iron-pine 10mo ago

I'll believe it when I see it. Right now it sounds like the only thing MAGA is tearing apart is the Western World.