5 ms·

Between species, not within species.

like_any_other 10mo ago
The concept of 'species' only exists within the human mind [1]. In nature, there are only slowly accumulating mutations, until two populations become differentiated enough that we arbitrarily assign them different taxa. In fact, that is the central thesis of the aptly-named On the Origin of Species. [1] And there are plenty of species that we consider distinct, that can and do interbreed and bear fertile offspring.
- hydrogen7800 10mo ago
  The quote you are responding to is a reaction to scientific racism. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, but you said that you find it amusing that this is still controversial.
  - like_any_other 10mo ago
    > The quote you are responding to is a reaction to scientific racism. No, it is a reaction to treating humans the same as finches. You give the thing he does a label and then attack the label, instead of attacking the thing itself.
  - sdwr 10mo ago
    Isolated populations "drift" genetically, which is how species form in the first place. Discriminating against people based on those differences sucks, sure, but it's still the ground truth.
    - hydrogen7800 10mo ago
      It does suck, but the differences on which discrimination happen do not map to actual genetic variation.[0] [0] https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/ https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/
      - cubefox 10mo ago
        Pretty sure there are genetic clustering algorithms which show that perceived race groups approximately correspond to measured race clusters. For example, random East Asians are more closely related to each other than to random West Europeans.
- IAmBroom 10mo ago
  > The concept of 'species' only exists within the human mind [1]. That's a theory, anyway. Yes, biologists (and presumably botanists and all those who study the other kingdoms) have made errors in judgment, and yes, the current definition is very poor (often broken, sometimes unprovable in a practical sense). It does not follow, however, that all life exists on some continuous spectrum of mutations. Members of Equus caballus have distinct genetic traits that do not occur in Equus asinus. The reality we see about us is that life seems to group itself into channels or pools of limited genetic variation. But that variation doesn't mean the channels/pools aren't real.
leonvoss 10mo ago
There are approximately 3 different human species, if you use the same distance measures that give us dog, wolf, and coyote (which can all interbreed).

The concept of 'species' only exists within the human mind [1]. In nature, there are only slowly accumulating mutations, until two populations become differentiated enough that we arbitrarily assign them different taxa. In fact, that is the central thesis of the aptly-named On the Origin of Species. [1] And there are plenty of species that we consider distinct, that can and do interbreed and bear fertile offspring.

hydrogen7800 10mo ago
The quote you are responding to is a reaction to scientific racism. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, but you said that you find it amusing that this is still controversial.
- like_any_other 10mo ago
  > The quote you are responding to is a reaction to scientific racism. No, it is a reaction to treating humans the same as finches. You give the thing he does a label and then attack the label, instead of attacking the thing itself.
- sdwr 10mo ago
  Isolated populations "drift" genetically, which is how species form in the first place. Discriminating against people based on those differences sucks, sure, but it's still the ground truth.
  - hydrogen7800 10mo ago
    It does suck, but the differences on which discrimination happen do not map to actual genetic variation.[0] [0] https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/ https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/
    - cubefox 10mo ago
      Pretty sure there are genetic clustering algorithms which show that perceived race groups approximately correspond to measured race clusters. For example, random East Asians are more closely related to each other than to random West Europeans.
IAmBroom 10mo ago
> The concept of 'species' only exists within the human mind [1]. That's a theory, anyway. Yes, biologists (and presumably botanists and all those who study the other kingdoms) have made errors in judgment, and yes, the current definition is very poor (often broken, sometimes unprovable in a practical sense). It does not follow, however, that all life exists on some continuous spectrum of mutations. Members of Equus caballus have distinct genetic traits that do not occur in Equus asinus. The reality we see about us is that life seems to group itself into channels or pools of limited genetic variation. But that variation doesn't mean the channels/pools aren't real.

leonvoss 10mo ago

There are approximately 3 different human species, if you use the same distance measures that give us dog, wolf, and coyote (which can all interbreed).