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> Writing CSS is not programming. We've heard that one before, haven't we? HTML was supposed to be a declarative language, not a vanilla programming one. And l

> Writing CSS is not programming. We've heard that one before, haven't we? HTML was supposed to be a declarative language, not a vanilla programming one. And look where we are... the biggest mess of a programming language the world has ever seen. What's the wisdom of randomly inserting cutesy "declarative" bits in a world infused with programming-oriented infrastructure... It doesn't make any sense.

pjaoko 10mo ago
HTML (Hyper-Text Markup Language) is a specific kind programming language, a markup language. It is nowhere close to a general purpose (Turing complete) programming language. Maybe you meant the web stack (HTML, JavaScript, CSS)?
- bigbadfeline 10mo ago
  > Maybe you meant the web stack (HTML, JavaScript) HTML5 doesn't refer specifically to HTML, rather it's "HTML + JavaScript + CSS". There's hardly a website nowadays that can be used without JS. By using the name HTML5 as an umbrella name for a programming language API plus some declarative bits, the W3C tacitly admitted that the declarative push has been a mistake - I explained "why" in my previous comment.
  - 1718627440 10mo ago
    On a technical forum in a post that contains, both the words "CSS" and "HTML"? Sorry, but no "HTML5" refers to the version 5 of the Hypertext Markup Language.
    - bigbadfeline 10mo ago
      HTML5 is the HTML of today, that's what I meant originally. I'm not sure what you're afraid of, nobody is attacking you, I'm simply explaining what I had in mind, and why it's not unreasonable to use words in a more inclusive, close to contemporary practice meaning. The fact is, JavaScript is ubiquitous in web programing and the web is unthinkable without it, it's so pervasive on the front end that it's been repurposed for backend use precisely because it makes a lot of sense to use one programming language for one project. Pure HTML is unsuitable for backend use and it sticks like a sore thumb in the front end. Younger developers are likely missing on the history of the entire web endeavor but in order to get a feel for it, I'd recommend to focus on practical meaning rather than on trivial semantics. The big point I was driving at is this: The damage has been done, instead of a clean rendering API we've got this hybrid monstrosity which locked us to a couple / triple browser rendering engines which, due to cutesy BS, are complex beyond comprehension, beyond security analysis or normal competition. This is what an obsession with fancy names leads to.
      - vpribish 10mo ago
        nah. the technical semantics is absolutely the point when we're talking about code. HTML is thing distinct from javascript and CSS and it's very useful to be precise about it in our context.
  - pjaoko 10mo ago
    HTML5 refers specifically to the latest, living version of HTML, the markup language. CSS and JavaScript have their own specifications, and version numbers. The term your looking for is the web platform [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_platform
- 1718627440 10mo ago
  It's a (computer) language, it is also a formal language. A programming language is a language in which you can write programs, which are descriptions of algorithms. You don't describe algorithms in HTML, hence it is not a programming language.
  - pjaoko 10mo ago
    Thats correct. Computer language is the top category. Markup and Programming languages are subcategories.
MarsIronPI 10mo ago
For me the first-approximation litmus test of "is it a real programming language" is "does it have conditionals"? HTML itself does not have conditionals (at least in common use, if you don't count the contents of <canvas> and <noscript>, which I don't). So I don't see how HTML is a programming language, let alone a messy one. LaTeX is a programming language because it's built on TeX, which is a programming language, but HTML purely marks up text. Granted, when you add CSS to the mix, HTML+CSS is programming if you get fancy about it.

pjaoko 10mo ago

HTML (Hyper-Text Markup Language) is a specific kind programming language, a markup language. It is nowhere close to a general purpose (Turing complete) programming language. Maybe you meant the web stack (HTML, JavaScript, CSS)?

bigbadfeline 10mo ago
> Maybe you meant the web stack (HTML, JavaScript) HTML5 doesn't refer specifically to HTML, rather it's "HTML + JavaScript + CSS". There's hardly a website nowadays that can be used without JS. By using the name HTML5 as an umbrella name for a programming language API plus some declarative bits, the W3C tacitly admitted that the declarative push has been a mistake - I explained "why" in my previous comment.
- 1718627440 10mo ago
  On a technical forum in a post that contains, both the words "CSS" and "HTML"? Sorry, but no "HTML5" refers to the version 5 of the Hypertext Markup Language.
  - bigbadfeline 10mo ago
    HTML5 is the HTML of today, that's what I meant originally. I'm not sure what you're afraid of, nobody is attacking you, I'm simply explaining what I had in mind, and why it's not unreasonable to use words in a more inclusive, close to contemporary practice meaning. The fact is, JavaScript is ubiquitous in web programing and the web is unthinkable without it, it's so pervasive on the front end that it's been repurposed for backend use precisely because it makes a lot of sense to use one programming language for one project. Pure HTML is unsuitable for backend use and it sticks like a sore thumb in the front end. Younger developers are likely missing on the history of the entire web endeavor but in order to get a feel for it, I'd recommend to focus on practical meaning rather than on trivial semantics. The big point I was driving at is this: The damage has been done, instead of a clean rendering API we've got this hybrid monstrosity which locked us to a couple / triple browser rendering engines which, due to cutesy BS, are complex beyond comprehension, beyond security analysis or normal competition. This is what an obsession with fancy names leads to.
    - vpribish 10mo ago
      nah. the technical semantics is absolutely the point when we're talking about code. HTML is thing distinct from javascript and CSS and it's very useful to be precise about it in our context.
- pjaoko 10mo ago
  HTML5 refers specifically to the latest, living version of HTML, the markup language. CSS and JavaScript have their own specifications, and version numbers. The term your looking for is the web platform [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_platform
1718627440 10mo ago
It's a (computer) language, it is also a formal language. A programming language is a language in which you can write programs, which are descriptions of algorithms. You don't describe algorithms in HTML, hence it is not a programming language.
- pjaoko 10mo ago
  Thats correct. Computer language is the top category. Markup and Programming languages are subcategories.

MarsIronPI 10mo ago

For me the first-approximation litmus test of "is it a real programming language" is "does it have conditionals"? HTML itself does not have conditionals (at least in common use, if you don't count the contents of <canvas> and <noscript>, which I don't). So I don't see how HTML is a programming language, let alone a messy one. LaTeX is a programming language because it's built on TeX, which is a programming language, but HTML purely marks up text. Granted, when you add CSS to the mix, HTML+CSS is programming if you get fancy about it.