4 ms·

This is an excellent article. Apple has been rudderless on the interaction design front for over a decade now. The windowing mess is evidence of it. We now hav

This is an excellent article. Apple has been rudderless on the interaction design front for over a decade now. The windowing mess is evidence of it. We now have the cmd+tab (app switcher), Spaces, Mission Control, (full screen) split screen, Stage Manager, and now tiled window control. None of those interaction metaphors have been expanded upon since their initial launch. I'm a "mac guy". I understood why Apple initially eschewed windows style alt-tab, given the emphasis on app-centricism. But now, they've created a thousand different ways to switch windows without giving us a proper window switcher. There are apps that bring alt-tab to Mac, but they are all bad because Apple doesn't give developers access to the low-level APIs to create performant and fully featured window management. Before, Apple had an endless well of great ideas to tap. That's how we got the term "Sherlocked". However, now that they've locked down macOS so much, they've suffocated themselves of new ideas.

walthamstow 9mo ago
I have to say I've never found anything wrong with the alt-tab app I use on macOS. I wonder if you're referring the permissions it has to ask for? https://github.com/lwouis/alt-tab-macos https://github.com/lwouis/alt-tab-macos
- postalcoder 9mo ago
  Alt tab is okay but it has performance issues (sometimes window switching is instant, sometimes there's a slight but perceptible delay). The devs have acknowledged it and said that it cannot be fixed. Other pet peeves include the smallest window thumbnails are enormous and enabling mouse hover to switch windows causes me to switch to the wrong window, and thumbnails are often stale.
  - soared 9mo ago
    You can change the window size in settings
    - postalcoder 9mo ago
      I did. It's set to small and still much too large for me.
- krferriter 9mo ago
  I think MacOS would be much more unusable without alt-tab, like this app is a critical piece of software that has to be installed on any MacOS machine I'm using. But it does sometimes miss a window, like it doesn't show up in the window list in alt-tab even though it is open. And then I have to use the three finger swipe up thing to find it. Not a huge deal but occasionally annoying, and I assume it is because they are limited in the access they have to this information, which Apple could make available if they wanted, but have decided not to.
oneeyedpigeon 9mo ago
I strongly believe we need to return to the drawing board and design a Window Environment from scratch because we've gone so far down the "everything's a mess" route that it's impossible to work our way out again. Here's an example: panes, tabs, windows, apps, spaces. These things all fight against each other, have their own little silos, get treated differently by every single app, etc, etc.
- postalcoder 9mo ago
  Agreed. Lots of conflicting principles. Like, it doesnt make sense to increase the padding across the UI and at the same time, push quarter-screen layouts. I'm almost begging Apple to create something that I don't like, but in a way that's thoughtful and committed to that bit.
- hn_throwaway_99 9mo ago
  I feel like there are a million reasons why this is the wrong choice. There are probably 10 xkcd comics alone that explain why this is a bad idea. "Let's throw every away and start from scratch" is a tempting idea, but it rarely works. Even taking your example of panes, windows, tabs, apps, and spaces, each of those have a separate and identifiable use case that, IMO, is valid. At least in my mind, I have a mental model around where panes, windows, tabs, and apps are appropriate, and I personally rarely use spaces (though I certainly understand people who like them), and they've never bother me because I can safely ignore them. And when you look at the issues identified in the article, they all seem very fixable to me. Fixable starting with Apple getting new design leadership, and given the guy responsible for Liquid Glass jumped to Meta, sounds like it was a good thing for Apple.
  - oneeyedpigeon 9mo ago
    I misworded that. See my other comment; tldr, I want windows, tabs, etc. to be properly implemented by the OS, to a standard, rather than in many different conflicting ways.
- cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
  > Here's an example: panes, tabs, windows, apps, spaces. These things all fight against each other, have their own little silos, get treated differently by every single app, etc, etc. Disagree. The fact that these are independent is a huge organizational boon for those who know how to apply some combination of them. Example: I set up spaces (virtual desktops) to have themes: one of general web, one for iOS dev, one for Android dev, etc. within that, it’s useful to be able to further organize with windows and tabs — windows can represent projects for example, and tabs can represent files. These work together to prevent a Cambrian explosion of windows that would be impossible to manage no matter how your environment works. It’s useful for apps to be distinct from windows, too. This allows things like moving all windows belonging to a particular app between screens, or minimizing/maximizing them all, hiding them all, etc. Panes in most circumstances are an entirely different beast than tabs and windows… it wouldn’t be useful to turn an inspector palette into a tab. They work together as long as one’s mental model isn’t overly simplistic.
xutopia 9mo ago
Cmd+~ switches windows of a given app in case you didn't know (not disagreeing with you but it is one shortcut I find super useful and it helps switch windows).
- asadm 9mo ago
  I heavily use this one actually.
  - aaroninsf 9mo ago
    Me too, in fact watching my hands for a moment, it's the only way I switch applications now
  - hombre_fatal 9mo ago
    On Linux I miss it and create a hybrid super-tilde action that cycles through apps of the same kind as the focused app.
- hamdingers 9mo ago
  My hate for this behavior grows with each passing year as more and more of the "apps" I use become browser windows.
  - wpm 9mo ago
    This is why I regard ChromeOS with fear. Because it really does feel like everything is just converging on the browser as the OS, and a browser is not a goddamn OS.
    - klysm 9mo ago
      The browser is effectively an OS - and it’s not very productive to cling to the notion that it isn’t one
      - wpm 9mo ago
        It's not very productive to build an entire OS on top of and JIT compiled on top of my already mature and functional OS. It's a waste of my time. And if it is an OS, it's also just not one where I can be very productive.

walthamstow 9mo ago

I have to say I've never found anything wrong with the alt-tab app I use on macOS. I wonder if you're referring the permissions it has to ask for? https://github.com/lwouis/alt-tab-macos https://github.com/lwouis/alt-tab-macos

postalcoder 9mo ago
Alt tab is okay but it has performance issues (sometimes window switching is instant, sometimes there's a slight but perceptible delay). The devs have acknowledged it and said that it cannot be fixed. Other pet peeves include the smallest window thumbnails are enormous and enabling mouse hover to switch windows causes me to switch to the wrong window, and thumbnails are often stale.
- soared 9mo ago
  You can change the window size in settings
  - postalcoder 9mo ago
    I did. It's set to small and still much too large for me.
krferriter 9mo ago
I think MacOS would be much more unusable without alt-tab, like this app is a critical piece of software that has to be installed on any MacOS machine I'm using. But it does sometimes miss a window, like it doesn't show up in the window list in alt-tab even though it is open. And then I have to use the three finger swipe up thing to find it. Not a huge deal but occasionally annoying, and I assume it is because they are limited in the access they have to this information, which Apple could make available if they wanted, but have decided not to.

oneeyedpigeon 9mo ago

I strongly believe we need to return to the drawing board and design a Window Environment from scratch because we've gone so far down the "everything's a mess" route that it's impossible to work our way out again. Here's an example: panes, tabs, windows, apps, spaces. These things all fight against each other, have their own little silos, get treated differently by every single app, etc, etc.

postalcoder 9mo ago
Agreed. Lots of conflicting principles. Like, it doesnt make sense to increase the padding across the UI and at the same time, push quarter-screen layouts. I'm almost begging Apple to create something that I don't like, but in a way that's thoughtful and committed to that bit.
hn_throwaway_99 9mo ago
I feel like there are a million reasons why this is the wrong choice. There are probably 10 xkcd comics alone that explain why this is a bad idea. "Let's throw every away and start from scratch" is a tempting idea, but it rarely works. Even taking your example of panes, windows, tabs, apps, and spaces, each of those have a separate and identifiable use case that, IMO, is valid. At least in my mind, I have a mental model around where panes, windows, tabs, and apps are appropriate, and I personally rarely use spaces (though I certainly understand people who like them), and they've never bother me because I can safely ignore them. And when you look at the issues identified in the article, they all seem very fixable to me. Fixable starting with Apple getting new design leadership, and given the guy responsible for Liquid Glass jumped to Meta, sounds like it was a good thing for Apple.
- oneeyedpigeon 9mo ago
  I misworded that. See my other comment; tldr, I want windows, tabs, etc. to be properly implemented by the OS, to a standard, rather than in many different conflicting ways.
cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
> Here's an example: panes, tabs, windows, apps, spaces. These things all fight against each other, have their own little silos, get treated differently by every single app, etc, etc. Disagree. The fact that these are independent is a huge organizational boon for those who know how to apply some combination of them. Example: I set up spaces (virtual desktops) to have themes: one of general web, one for iOS dev, one for Android dev, etc. within that, it’s useful to be able to further organize with windows and tabs — windows can represent projects for example, and tabs can represent files. These work together to prevent a Cambrian explosion of windows that would be impossible to manage no matter how your environment works. It’s useful for apps to be distinct from windows, too. This allows things like moving all windows belonging to a particular app between screens, or minimizing/maximizing them all, hiding them all, etc. Panes in most circumstances are an entirely different beast than tabs and windows… it wouldn’t be useful to turn an inspector palette into a tab. They work together as long as one’s mental model isn’t overly simplistic.

xutopia 9mo ago

Cmd+~ switches windows of a given app in case you didn't know (not disagreeing with you but it is one shortcut I find super useful and it helps switch windows).

asadm 9mo ago
I heavily use this one actually.
- aaroninsf 9mo ago
  Me too, in fact watching my hands for a moment, it's the only way I switch applications now
- hombre_fatal 9mo ago
  On Linux I miss it and create a hybrid super-tilde action that cycles through apps of the same kind as the focused app.
hamdingers 9mo ago
My hate for this behavior grows with each passing year as more and more of the "apps" I use become browser windows.
- wpm 9mo ago
  This is why I regard ChromeOS with fear. Because it really does feel like everything is just converging on the browser as the OS, and a browser is not a goddamn OS.
  - klysm 9mo ago
    The browser is effectively an OS - and it’s not very productive to cling to the notion that it isn’t one
    - wpm 9mo ago
      It's not very productive to build an entire OS on top of and JIT compiled on top of my already mature and functional OS. It's a waste of my time. And if it is an OS, it's also just not one where I can be very productive.