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China is already doing abominable things; how people react to additional surveillance is always related to what the state is actually doing with that informatio

China is already doing abominable things; how people react to additional surveillance is always related to what the state is actually doing with that information. So a system that supports the abduction of polital rivals (an actual human rights violation) is not the same as a system that supports the lawful arrest of someone breaking a law that's accepted as part of a democracy. I also think the scale of investment plays a part, the investment in surveillance in China is absurd. Its a significant number of people (per capita) that do nothing but monitor people. These new systems are rather cheap; so much so that they feel a whole lot more inevitable.

kingkawn 10mo ago
In both systems the law is being carefully followed to support inhumane goals
- concinds 10mo ago
  ICE and USBP are quite famously breaking many laws.
  - mlrtime 10mo ago
    Unfortunately ICE has somewhat broad powers that allow them to enforce Federal laws that local LEOs cannot get away with. This should be challenged in a court.
    - hwguy45 10mo ago
      Some say unfortunate, others say fortunate. It's a luxury belief to want to let people walk across the border and have no repercussions. Enforce the border, get all the illegals out.
      - goatlover 10mo ago
        Everyone in this country regardless of their status is still guaranteed due process by the Constitution. The Venezuelans and Abrego Garcia sent to CECOT was done without due process and in violation of a Federal Judge's orders. Not to mention CECOT is a horrible prison. I think it's cruel and inhuman to deport people already here unless they're engaged in criminal activities. Most of them are hard working people who gave up everything to flee bad circumstances in their home countries. We're a nation of immigrants. You want the border secure, fine (I would prefer immigration reform since we have a large country and tons of economic opportunity migrants fulfill). But don't be so cruel as to support what ICE is doing to hard working people who have established lives here. Most of them are not criminals.
        pandaman 10mo ago
        You believe laws were not followed in the case of deportations and seem to be angry about that but simultaneously you want the laws, that demand deportations of illegal aliens, to not be followed. Do you notice any irrationality with this position?
        mlrtime 10mo ago
        Unfortunately for them they are technically criminals by entering illegally. They all knew they were taking a calculated risk by coming here, some made it, some did not. Agreed on the reform, we are in a pendulum stage now where the previous admin let too many in without reform (The first 3 years) and how it's gone too far the other way.
        heavyset_go 10mo ago
        Overstay and unlawful presence are civil offenses, not criminal. Vast majority of undocumented people overstay visas and entered legally. Asylum seekers are being abducted and deported to countries they have no ties to. It's perfectly legal to cross borders without inspection to seek asylum.
        hwguy45 10mo ago
        They are still deportable crimes. You cannot walk into a country and never leave just "because". And no, the vast majority are not overstays. Less than half are overstays that came here legally [0]. So 58% crossed the border illegally. Asylum seekers have been coached on what to say to claim asylum. Few are seeking asylum at all. The system is obviously being abused when these people vacation back to their home country that was so "dangerous" they claimed asylum. [0] https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47848 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47848
  - kingkawn 10mo ago
    I admit I didn’t expect this pushback against America’s corrupt current regime which is obviously morally bankrupt. But, by the letter of the law and the function of the court system they are acting with complete impunity within what they have been permitted to do to the detriment of people everywhere.
- lostlogin 10mo ago
  > In both systems the law is being carefully followed to support inhumane goals I’m not sure it is though, there are plenty of headlines about judicial orders being disregarded. This last few weeks it has been the required release of the Epstein papers, though that has been railroaded by a conveniently timed attack on a neighbour. There are plenty of other examples.
- 15155 10mo ago
  Why do we need to give free stuff to every person that wades across the southern border? What is our legal or moral obligation to eviscerate our already-limited social safety net for outsiders who, by and large, do not contribute to them? You are free to die on the cross and spend your income this way, but how is it "humane" to use violence (taxes) to reappropriate the fruits of my labor for your special interests?
  - kingkawn 10mo ago
    Bc these immigrants as a whole contribute more to the federal state and local tax base than they take out, it’s super simple. I guess you don’t like the economy.
    - 15155 10mo ago
      Another artful legal vs. illegal conflation - citation needed. I have no doubt in my mind folks coming in on H-1B and O-1 visas contribute more than they take out: nobody is disputing that. When an illegal immigrant making $2/hr under the table cuts his hand off at a meat packing plant, who pays the hospital bill? How many tax dollars does this one incident wipe out?
      - goatlover 10mo ago
        Vastly less than the tax dollars for all the foreign military interventions including the latest adventure in Venezuela, if you're really worried about wasting tax dollars. A universal healthcare system would cover everyone in the country when it's needed. The US is a massive, highly developed economy, no reason we couldn't fund that.
  - Hikikomori 10mo ago
    US foreign "policy" is part of why you call them shitholes, then you wonder why they come there.
watwut 10mo ago
ICE does not care about "lawful arrests". Like common, that is not their thing.
- fiyec30375 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - metalman 10mo ago
    comming through the door with a throw away account to monitor and disparage someones reputation under the increadably dubious cover of maintaining "standards" as a self appointed gramer/spelling enforcement officer. conventions are strictly a tool used by entrenched beurocracys to discredit voices that wont, or cant, conform to there little tedious "rules", and fully weaponised in situations where someone is to be detained and held against there will.The standard method bieng to choose one specific statement, taken out of context, to diagnose a person, and justify further action, for "saftey" but our discussion centers on this whole process bieng automated and rendered down to an image, likely begining with a pantone # for skin tone errors be fucking damned eh!
vkou 10mo ago
> is not the same as a system that supports the lawful arrest That is not the system that the US has had since 2025, and the executive has made it very clear that it is not the system that it wants the US to have. Meanwhile, SCOTUS has made it very clear that nothing this executive does will have any consequences for it. Rule of law is a fairy tale when ICE can snag anyone they want off the street and throw them into some CECOT torture pit. Rule of law is a fairy tale when the executive disregards direct judicial orders.
heavyset_go 10mo ago
Democracy is when you get abducted and sent to CECOT because some shitty AI face app said so
- mindslight 10mo ago
  Democracy is when the useful idiots cheer on the abductions/renditions with full-throated support, relishing in the spectacular human suffering of others as if two wrongs make a right. But those pounds of flesh are merely being chummed at them by the same exact corporate-government propagandists that shipped their jobs to China in the first place, now promising naked fascism as a way of somehow putting things right when it's really just the next step of the ongoing destruction of their country. But I'm sure when they start to wake up to the grave error they've made (ten+ years too late), their egos will protect themselves with cognitive dissonance while the machine throws them some new scapegoats to distract themselves with.
oulipo2 10mo ago
That's a totally wrong way to think about it, akin to "I have nothing to hide so why not let the government look into all my communications"
fooker 10mo ago
> abduction of political rivals Couldn’t have timed it better, we just pulled off the most high profile abduction of a geopolitical rival in history.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > we just pulled off the most high profile abduction of a geopolitical rival in history We literally did the same thing in 1989 [1]. Russia planned to do it to Zelensky when they first invaded. None of this makes it okay. But it's hyperbolic to say it's unprecedented, even in U.S. history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...

kingkawn 10mo ago

In both systems the law is being carefully followed to support inhumane goals

concinds 10mo ago
ICE and USBP are quite famously breaking many laws.
- mlrtime 10mo ago
  Unfortunately ICE has somewhat broad powers that allow them to enforce Federal laws that local LEOs cannot get away with. This should be challenged in a court.
  - hwguy45 10mo ago
    Some say unfortunate, others say fortunate. It's a luxury belief to want to let people walk across the border and have no repercussions. Enforce the border, get all the illegals out.
    - goatlover 10mo ago
      Everyone in this country regardless of their status is still guaranteed due process by the Constitution. The Venezuelans and Abrego Garcia sent to CECOT was done without due process and in violation of a Federal Judge's orders. Not to mention CECOT is a horrible prison. I think it's cruel and inhuman to deport people already here unless they're engaged in criminal activities. Most of them are hard working people who gave up everything to flee bad circumstances in their home countries. We're a nation of immigrants. You want the border secure, fine (I would prefer immigration reform since we have a large country and tons of economic opportunity migrants fulfill). But don't be so cruel as to support what ICE is doing to hard working people who have established lives here. Most of them are not criminals.
      - pandaman 10mo ago
        You believe laws were not followed in the case of deportations and seem to be angry about that but simultaneously you want the laws, that demand deportations of illegal aliens, to not be followed. Do you notice any irrationality with this position?
      - mlrtime 10mo ago
        Unfortunately for them they are technically criminals by entering illegally. They all knew they were taking a calculated risk by coming here, some made it, some did not. Agreed on the reform, we are in a pendulum stage now where the previous admin let too many in without reform (The first 3 years) and how it's gone too far the other way.
        heavyset_go 10mo ago
        Overstay and unlawful presence are civil offenses, not criminal. Vast majority of undocumented people overstay visas and entered legally. Asylum seekers are being abducted and deported to countries they have no ties to. It's perfectly legal to cross borders without inspection to seek asylum.
        hwguy45 10mo ago
        They are still deportable crimes. You cannot walk into a country and never leave just "because". And no, the vast majority are not overstays. Less than half are overstays that came here legally [0]. So 58% crossed the border illegally. Asylum seekers have been coached on what to say to claim asylum. Few are seeking asylum at all. The system is obviously being abused when these people vacation back to their home country that was so "dangerous" they claimed asylum. [0] https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47848 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47848
- kingkawn 10mo ago
  I admit I didn’t expect this pushback against America’s corrupt current regime which is obviously morally bankrupt. But, by the letter of the law and the function of the court system they are acting with complete impunity within what they have been permitted to do to the detriment of people everywhere.
lostlogin 10mo ago
> In both systems the law is being carefully followed to support inhumane goals I’m not sure it is though, there are plenty of headlines about judicial orders being disregarded. This last few weeks it has been the required release of the Epstein papers, though that has been railroaded by a conveniently timed attack on a neighbour. There are plenty of other examples.
15155 10mo ago
Why do we need to give free stuff to every person that wades across the southern border? What is our legal or moral obligation to eviscerate our already-limited social safety net for outsiders who, by and large, do not contribute to them? You are free to die on the cross and spend your income this way, but how is it "humane" to use violence (taxes) to reappropriate the fruits of my labor for your special interests?
- kingkawn 10mo ago
  Bc these immigrants as a whole contribute more to the federal state and local tax base than they take out, it’s super simple. I guess you don’t like the economy.
  - 15155 10mo ago
    Another artful legal vs. illegal conflation - citation needed. I have no doubt in my mind folks coming in on H-1B and O-1 visas contribute more than they take out: nobody is disputing that. When an illegal immigrant making $2/hr under the table cuts his hand off at a meat packing plant, who pays the hospital bill? How many tax dollars does this one incident wipe out?
    - goatlover 10mo ago
      Vastly less than the tax dollars for all the foreign military interventions including the latest adventure in Venezuela, if you're really worried about wasting tax dollars. A universal healthcare system would cover everyone in the country when it's needed. The US is a massive, highly developed economy, no reason we couldn't fund that.
- Hikikomori 10mo ago
  US foreign "policy" is part of why you call them shitholes, then you wonder why they come there.

watwut 10mo ago

ICE does not care about "lawful arrests". Like common, that is not their thing.

fiyec30375 10mo ago
[flagged]
- metalman 10mo ago
  comming through the door with a throw away account to monitor and disparage someones reputation under the increadably dubious cover of maintaining "standards" as a self appointed gramer/spelling enforcement officer. conventions are strictly a tool used by entrenched beurocracys to discredit voices that wont, or cant, conform to there little tedious "rules", and fully weaponised in situations where someone is to be detained and held against there will.The standard method bieng to choose one specific statement, taken out of context, to diagnose a person, and justify further action, for "saftey" but our discussion centers on this whole process bieng automated and rendered down to an image, likely begining with a pantone # for skin tone errors be fucking damned eh!

vkou 10mo ago

> is not the same as a system that supports the lawful arrest That is not the system that the US has had since 2025, and the executive has made it very clear that it is not the system that it wants the US to have. Meanwhile, SCOTUS has made it very clear that nothing this executive does will have any consequences for it. Rule of law is a fairy tale when ICE can snag anyone they want off the street and throw them into some CECOT torture pit. Rule of law is a fairy tale when the executive disregards direct judicial orders.

heavyset_go 10mo ago

Democracy is when you get abducted and sent to CECOT because some shitty AI face app said so

mindslight 10mo ago
Democracy is when the useful idiots cheer on the abductions/renditions with full-throated support, relishing in the spectacular human suffering of others as if two wrongs make a right. But those pounds of flesh are merely being chummed at them by the same exact corporate-government propagandists that shipped their jobs to China in the first place, now promising naked fascism as a way of somehow putting things right when it's really just the next step of the ongoing destruction of their country. But I'm sure when they start to wake up to the grave error they've made (ten+ years too late), their egos will protect themselves with cognitive dissonance while the machine throws them some new scapegoats to distract themselves with.

oulipo2 10mo ago

That's a totally wrong way to think about it, akin to "I have nothing to hide so why not let the government look into all my communications"

fooker 10mo ago

> abduction of political rivals Couldn’t have timed it better, we just pulled off the most high profile abduction of a geopolitical rival in history.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> we just pulled off the most high profile abduction of a geopolitical rival in history We literally did the same thing in 1989 [1]. Russia planned to do it to Zelensky when they first invaded. None of this makes it okay. But it's hyperbolic to say it's unprecedented, even in U.S. history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...