9 ms·

Reasons not to buy from Amazon

73 points by denzil_correa 14y ago

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  If everyone in the US was a murderer, it hopefully still wouldn't make murder a positive thing. Same for privacy violations and restrictions on freedom.
- csmattryder 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure he could find fault in a child's lemonade stand. Not knocking what he stands for though, digital freedom is important, but nothing seems to be truly ethical. It's the price we pay for convenience.
- rhizome 14y ago
  Well, I'd caution you not to make argumentum ad populum an organizing principle in your life. I've seen it attempted many times and rarely if ever does it result in increased happiness.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  He also hates many things that aren't popular as well. The popularity of what is being criticized seems an odd way to gauge the worth of the criticism.
cvanderlinden 14y ago
I literally just bought a book of Amazon three minutes ago. I couldn't find it anywhere else. A local author and the book was only available in hardcover. I guess I'm just a sucker for convenience.
thewordis 14y ago
Reasons to buy from Amazon: * Cheap * Consistent * Fast shipping * Good product availability * Good return policies * Vendor and item ratings
- benguild 14y ago
  Agreed. And buyer protection + great customer service. (Zappos level)
- mcantelon 14y ago
  Yes, when it's a matter of convenience vs ethical soundness convenience will win every time.
  - vijayr 14y ago
    I don't remember who it was, but someone said "the thing that we are most afraid of, is inconvenience"
  - msg 14y ago
    Convenience is an ethical soundness, it just isn't usually taken that way. Shifting commerce to digital and personal, just-in-time shipping, and customer-centric are good. Ugly business practices, creepy data mining, and DRM are bad. If you want to wave your hand at "conveniences", why wouldn't I wave my hand at "philosophical quibbles"? Amazon is a mixed bag. For me, it's more good than bad. Putting your blinders on to the good for the sake of argument is not convincing.
    - mcantelon 14y ago
      I think I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Maybe it's that small wins for large number of individuals outweighs large losses for small numbers of individual?
      - msg 14y ago
        The OP pointed out a number of good things about Amazon. I took you to imply that these reasons are sellouts, and ethical issues are on a different plane than commercial considerations. My take on this is that it's early in the conversation to downplay these wins as small (after all, why do people die of starvation today? Not shortages or money: distribution, which is a keystone problem for Amazon). I also hope we will think of improving commerce as a moral issue. Assuming that it boils down to worthless materialism or Mammon is not a fair picture.
aeurielesn 14y ago
> Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom (PDF[1] or html[2]). This is real. There is something wrong with the way Amazon deals with ebooks, and it is sad to see people backing it up. --- [1]: http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf [2]: http://gnu.org/philosophy/the-danger-of-ebooks.html http://gnu.org/philosophy/the-danger-of-ebooks.html
- the_mitsuhiko 14y ago
  Can you elaborate what's the problem with DRM?
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    When I buy something, I like to know it's mine, rather than just 'in my possession with permission to use'. For example, depending on the EULA (and also jurisdiction), if you declare bankruptcy, you have to delete all your local copies of DRM-ed media, because you no longer have the permission to use them, even though you already paid for it.
    - dpark 14y ago
      > depending on the EULA (and also jurisdiction), if you declare bankruptcy, you have to delete all your local copies of DRM-ed media What? If ever a citation was needed, it's now.
      - chimeracoder 14y ago
        I don't know what kind of a 'citation' you're looking for. It's possible to write language like that into a license for use; whether or not that's enforceable is a function of several variables, such as how the license is written, which jurisdiction we're talking about, and which legal authority happens to comment on it. Say I provide some lawyer or judge who confirms this, and you find another who disagrees. There's no conflict there; my whole point is that this is a matter of legal opinion, and therefore a possibility. Contrast to sale of a physical good, where the first-sale doctrine means that such restrictions on subsequent sale and use can't exist. (The implication is that the same would apply to DRM-free media, because a lack of DRM means that they can't enforce any such restrictions, either through practical means or through legal channels).
SwearWord 14y ago
I hate this guy
staunch 14y ago
...and they charge sales tax now :-(
- teraflop 14y ago
  Technically, your state government charges sales tax. Amazon just helps them enforce it, instead of trusting that you'll be honest and pay it yourself.
simonsarris 14y ago
Most of these are problems with any large company, not Amazon per se. Yes, companies want to kill competition by any means and do all sorts of bad-for-the-consumer and bad-for-workers things. We didn't just wake up yesterday into the industrial era. That's all of capitalism. Amazon isn't special, just high-profile. > if you rent a server from Amazon, you have no rights. Amazon isn't in the business of granting rights. If you don't like any of the things included in Stallman's list, don't expect change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change should come from us by way of better governance. I feel like Stallman missed a good time to make a positive point on why we need better governance and perhaps regulation to reign in the much uglier parts of corporations/capitalism/behavior that we might as a society not like. He could have been inspiring and spoken to a much wider audience than the paranoia crowd. Instead he wanted to make a negative piece about Amazon. It made the top of HN, where we'll talk aboutit for 15 hours, and then nobody else will listen. More generally I think its safe to say that people will not listen to a boycott that inconveniences them. They might listen to a positive message on the reasons we should support and enact laws upholding digital freedoms, worker rights, and things to stop anti-competitive practices. There are a lot of digital freedom causes worth championing, but I'm always disappointed by Stallman. It's easy to hate. We need more positive people that can frame causes like this more effectively.
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  > don't expect change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change should come from us by way of better governance. Devil's advocate: Rights are inherent, and an external authority (government, etc.) cannot by definition grant them; it can only restrict them (though whether it should is separate). It's a subtle point, but I bring this up because it's more in line with the way Stallman thinks, so to miss that point (for any other readers) is to misunderstand Stallman.
  - overcyn 14y ago
    I don't get your point, can external authorities not protect your rights? What is the course of action that you are getting at?
raverbashing 14y ago
Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans Independent bookstores are nice, but they fail to account for the long tail, that's where Amazon shines. And for the "common books" the big chains do an ok job. E.g. Harry Potter (Still, physical B&N stores seem to be going away, Borders is history already)
- fletchowns 14y ago
  Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans What does that have to do with any of the things he mentioned in the post?
  - apawloski 14y ago
    Nothing. It's a typical ad hominem attack and the parent comment either 1) doesn't understand that this does nothing to invalidate an argument or 2) doesn't care.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy Basically, it's ok for him to charge for his right of image, it's ok for the GPL to place limits on IP, but it's not ok for others to charge for other rights like IP or limit the ways their IP can be used (Right of image is not IP, it's a Personality right, still - and I agree with the GPL)
    - rhizome 14y ago
      So you'd criticize him for speaking against any limits?
bobsy 14y ago
Interesting article. When you make an alternative to Amazon which has a similar selection and shipping time I will consider it. I do not have a local book shop. My supermarket which is strangling farmers, killing off grocers, butchers, video game shops etc only have the best sellers list. I have yet to find an alternative which is consistently cheap and delivers next day or the day after with free shipping.. To your points. > Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom This is no different from music. I could choose to buy a physical book but sometimes I feel that my kindle could get it faster and I could save space in my house which already is littered with large books. > Amazon's on-line music "sales" have some of the same problems as the ebooks This is the same as a number of other music retailers. If I want to avoid this I will get a DVD. Just because Amazon offers you a convenient option doesn't mean you have to take it. I would rather save space in my house and save the environment by purchasing digital music than buy a CD which will be scanned onto my computer once then left on a shelf. > Amazon's shipping in the US is done in a sweatshop Oh well.. this is something state officials should look into. I have seen the UK distribution center a number of times on the news and it looks alright. > Amazon cut off service to Wikileaks Oh well.. it is Amazon's service. Wikileaks can use another. I use a service and I cut people off fairly often due to the content they post. They broke my terms -> They go. The end. They can build their own software. Or in Wikileaks case.. find another host / make their own. > Amazon squeezes small publishers. Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. Sometimes people get trodden on. If Amazon won't do you an agreeable deal go elsewhere. Make an organization with similar companies and reject any deals which you cannot agree to. Throw your weight behind a different ebook reader. > Amazon doesn't just compete with independent book stores, it arrogantly seeks to destroy them. Please.. there are app's like this which compare prices all over the place. Again. Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. When I buy from a bookshop I know I am paying more. That is fine because I can see the book, touch the book and take it home then and there. Most people know this. Sometimes a local book store cannot sell a book even remotely competitively. An app which told me this would be nice. I don't mind paying a few pounds more in a store. When it is £5-10 there is a problem with the shop. > Amazon appears to treat self-published authors well, but it can unilaterally cut the price of their books. And when it does, the authors are the ones who lose. It is an authors choice whether they use the publishing platform or not. I wouldn't after hearing how Amazon auto-discounted an authors book and the author got screwed. > Amazon censored an ebook that exposed how ebook bestseller lists can be manipulated (and therefore are meaningless). Is this so unexpected? Guy tries to publish book on Amazon about how to game the Amazon review and ranking system... > Amazon was a member of ALEC. Oh well. Amazon isn't a saint. They are responsible for putting a number of small businesses out of business. They damage the high street. However.. look at any major superstore. Its just the evolution of business. I will not be boycotting Amazon any time soon.
rickdale 14y ago
The only legitimate reason I can think of to not order off of Amazon is because sometimes you end up paying for express shipping when they would have got the item out to you in the same amount of time anyway.
mark_l_watson 14y ago
A complex subject. Stallman makes valid points, we do need fair laws that keep corporations from bad behavior while otherwise staying out of their way to do business. I vote with my wallet at two extremes. Locally, I enjoy spending money at the small businesses in my neighborhood that I really hope stay in business and make a fair profit. At the other end of the business-size spectrum, I love the convenience of Amazon for ordering physical goods and having them delivered to my home in the mountains. I understand the negative aspects of DRM but I really like the Kindle platform. It is true that I may not always have access in the distant future to what I have bought, but in most cases I won't want a lot of what I buy to read in 10 years (and it will probably be available for as long as I live anyway). I pay a lot less (usually) for Kindle format books and they are available on all of my devices, with automatic syncing to furthest location read. Also, my study/home office is already filled to capacity with bookshelves - now I just buy really special books (on Go, Chess, Art books, some classic computer science, etc.) as physical books and enjoy otherwise saving the space on my bookshelves.
bartv331 14y ago
But it's cheaper!!! ;-) This is a free market, Amazon wins, the other loses. End of story. Just ordered another book ON AMAZON. Free shipping, no sales tax!!
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Gentle reminder: unless your state doesn't have sales tax, you probably still have to pay use tax.
jspthrowaway 14y ago
The split personality in the HN community is interesting. On one hand, you have things like "never let the perfect be the enemy of the good; better to have a product that works than to get everything right". On the other, you have things like "Amazon puts DRM on their ebooks and terminated Wikileaks. Boycott everything they do." Amazon is innovative enough and has benefited my life enough that I'm willing to sacrifice some freedoms for that convenience. Richard Stallman, however, cannot be happy if you make that decision on your own. Eventually, you have to ask yourself if you want to spend your life obeying what an influential person tells you to do (and sacrifice conveniences to hold the world to a higher standard which will never be realized), or realize that ships sail and you'd rather be on the ship than yelling at it with clenched fist from the harbor.
- Codhisattva 14y ago
  I'm sure there's a helluva lot more opinions than those two among the readers of Hacker News. The best communities are diverse.
kmfrk 14y ago
A lot of people are bringing up the consumer issues related to using Amazon. But also consider the implications for publishers.
jrockway 14y ago
Seems unfair for Stallman to criticize the fact that they stopped funding ALEC after many people asked them too. It's kind of like taking hostages, having all your demands met, and then killing all the hostages anyway. Why will Amazon change if we criticize them for doing something we asked them to do?
listic 14y ago
What is Amazon's current stance on ebook DRM? Did they abandon it yet?
hyhyhy 14y ago
All this from the guy who eats something he picked from his foot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ at 1':52" into the video.
robertp 14y ago
UPS and robots do shipping now. That article he cited is old.
- piffey 14y ago
  This is true, Amazon is moving toward more automated shipping. It will lower prices and improve conditions for workers that remain. One evil cured, eh? http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/19/amazon-acquires-online-fulfillment-company-kiva-systems-for-775-million-in-cash/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/19/amazon-acquires-online-fulf...
- adrr 14y ago
  That could be a negative since you removed a bunch of jobs. Also working in 100 degree warehouse isn't that bad, i spent many summers working on a farm in a lot worse conditions(heat, sun and ankle deep in pig manure). Using the same logic we should stop eating.
  - Firehed 14y ago
    I don't see how jobs for the sake of jobs is of real benefit to society. Just as programmers tend to automate away humans with small shells scripts (costs go down, reliability increases), a robot automating away inventory picking is a good thing (lower cost, vastly decreased chance of injuries, possibility of "dark" warehouses, 24-hour operation, etc) Maybe I'm being very 1% here (despite not being even remotely near that income bracket), but I'd be perfectly happy to see machines replace humans in nearly all unskilled labor situations. If Amazon is ahead of the curve here, good for them - it's one of the reasons I own [a tiny amount of] AMZN stock. Getting people doing something that requires thinking because we've eliminated mindless work is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. That won't require everyone in the world have a four-year formal education; there are plenty of opportunities that don't require years of specialized training where you're not likely to be replaced by a couple of servos or a few lines of bash.
maxharris 14y ago
What about reasons not to listen to Stallman? There are other ethical views than just his. In addition to being practical, it's morally good for individual programmers to work on commercial products solely for their own long-term gain, and that doing so doesn't come at the expense of others. Others are free to buy those products if they wish. The fact that so many people choose to do so is evidence of the tremendous value that paid developers and companies provide.
AlexeiSadeski 14y ago
I don't find a single one of these "reasons" even remotely compelling as cause not to do business with Amazon. Were I to run Amazon tomorrow, I would change not one of these policies.
iterative 14y ago
A lot of Stallman's points are nonsense, but the one about ALEC is particularly stupid and misinformed. ALEC, which is basically a think tank, has been the subject of a campaign of demonization by the totalitarian left, which has unfortunately been very effective in getting some of their contributors to cut off funding. If you don't like ALEC's solutions to problems, then by all means you should start your own damn foundation and promote out your own set of "model bills" and position papers, instead of trying silence ALEC's.
SeppoErviala 14y ago
The number 1 reason is the practice of letting you click all the way to "ship to address" screen before telling you that they cannot ship the selected item to your location. This is extremely frustrating! Why are they advertising products they are not willing to sell? (This problem is rampant in Finland, probably not applicable to USA)

73 points by denzil_correa 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 14y ago
If everyone in the US was a murderer, it hopefully still wouldn't make murder a positive thing. Same for privacy violations and restrictions on freedom.
csmattryder 14y ago
I'm pretty sure he could find fault in a child's lemonade stand. Not knocking what he stands for though, digital freedom is important, but nothing seems to be truly ethical. It's the price we pay for convenience.
rhizome 14y ago
Well, I'd caution you not to make argumentum ad populum an organizing principle in your life. I've seen it attempted many times and rarely if ever does it result in increased happiness.
mcantelon 14y ago
He also hates many things that aren't popular as well. The popularity of what is being criticized seems an odd way to gauge the worth of the criticism.

cvanderlinden 14y ago

I literally just bought a book of Amazon three minutes ago. I couldn't find it anywhere else. A local author and the book was only available in hardcover. I guess I'm just a sucker for convenience.

thewordis 14y ago

Reasons to buy from Amazon: * Cheap * Consistent * Fast shipping * Good product availability * Good return policies * Vendor and item ratings

benguild 14y ago
Agreed. And buyer protection + great customer service. (Zappos level)
mcantelon 14y ago
Yes, when it's a matter of convenience vs ethical soundness convenience will win every time.
- vijayr 14y ago
  I don't remember who it was, but someone said "the thing that we are most afraid of, is inconvenience"
- msg 14y ago
  Convenience is an ethical soundness, it just isn't usually taken that way. Shifting commerce to digital and personal, just-in-time shipping, and customer-centric are good. Ugly business practices, creepy data mining, and DRM are bad. If you want to wave your hand at "conveniences", why wouldn't I wave my hand at "philosophical quibbles"? Amazon is a mixed bag. For me, it's more good than bad. Putting your blinders on to the good for the sake of argument is not convincing.
  - mcantelon 14y ago
    I think I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Maybe it's that small wins for large number of individuals outweighs large losses for small numbers of individual?
    - msg 14y ago
      The OP pointed out a number of good things about Amazon. I took you to imply that these reasons are sellouts, and ethical issues are on a different plane than commercial considerations. My take on this is that it's early in the conversation to downplay these wins as small (after all, why do people die of starvation today? Not shortages or money: distribution, which is a keystone problem for Amazon). I also hope we will think of improving commerce as a moral issue. Assuming that it boils down to worthless materialism or Mammon is not a fair picture.

aeurielesn 14y ago

> Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom (PDF[1] or html[2]). This is real. There is something wrong with the way Amazon deals with ebooks, and it is sad to see people backing it up. --- [1]: http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf [2]: http://gnu.org/philosophy/the-danger-of-ebooks.html http://gnu.org/philosophy/the-danger-of-ebooks.html

the_mitsuhiko 14y ago
Can you elaborate what's the problem with DRM?
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  When I buy something, I like to know it's mine, rather than just 'in my possession with permission to use'. For example, depending on the EULA (and also jurisdiction), if you declare bankruptcy, you have to delete all your local copies of DRM-ed media, because you no longer have the permission to use them, even though you already paid for it.
  - dpark 14y ago
    > depending on the EULA (and also jurisdiction), if you declare bankruptcy, you have to delete all your local copies of DRM-ed media What? If ever a citation was needed, it's now.
    - chimeracoder 14y ago
      I don't know what kind of a 'citation' you're looking for. It's possible to write language like that into a license for use; whether or not that's enforceable is a function of several variables, such as how the license is written, which jurisdiction we're talking about, and which legal authority happens to comment on it. Say I provide some lawyer or judge who confirms this, and you find another who disagrees. There's no conflict there; my whole point is that this is a matter of legal opinion, and therefore a possibility. Contrast to sale of a physical good, where the first-sale doctrine means that such restrictions on subsequent sale and use can't exist. (The implication is that the same would apply to DRM-free media, because a lack of DRM means that they can't enforce any such restrictions, either through practical means or through legal channels).

SwearWord 14y ago

I hate this guy

staunch 14y ago

...and they charge sales tax now :-(

teraflop 14y ago
Technically, your state government charges sales tax. Amazon just helps them enforce it, instead of trusting that you'll be honest and pay it yourself.

simonsarris 14y ago

Most of these are problems with any large company, not Amazon per se. Yes, companies want to kill competition by any means and do all sorts of bad-for-the-consumer and bad-for-workers things. We didn't just wake up yesterday into the industrial era. That's all of capitalism. Amazon isn't special, just high-profile. > if you rent a server from Amazon, you have no rights. Amazon isn't in the business of granting rights. If you don't like any of the things included in Stallman's list, don't expect change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change should come from us by way of better governance. I feel like Stallman missed a good time to make a positive point on why we need better governance and perhaps regulation to reign in the much uglier parts of corporations/capitalism/behavior that we might as a society not like. He could have been inspiring and spoken to a much wider audience than the paranoia crowd. Instead he wanted to make a negative piece about Amazon. It made the top of HN, where we'll talk aboutit for 15 hours, and then nobody else will listen. More generally I think its safe to say that people will not listen to a boycott that inconveniences them. They might listen to a positive message on the reasons we should support and enact laws upholding digital freedoms, worker rights, and things to stop anti-competitive practices. There are a lot of digital freedom causes worth championing, but I'm always disappointed by Stallman. It's easy to hate. We need more positive people that can frame causes like this more effectively.

chimeracoder 14y ago
> don't expect change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change should come from us by way of better governance. Devil's advocate: Rights are inherent, and an external authority (government, etc.) cannot by definition grant them; it can only restrict them (though whether it should is separate). It's a subtle point, but I bring this up because it's more in line with the way Stallman thinks, so to miss that point (for any other readers) is to misunderstand Stallman.
- overcyn 14y ago
  I don't get your point, can external authorities not protect your rights? What is the course of action that you are getting at?

raverbashing 14y ago

Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans Independent bookstores are nice, but they fail to account for the long tail, that's where Amazon shines. And for the "common books" the big chains do an ok job. E.g. Harry Potter (Still, physical B&N stores seem to be going away, Borders is history already)

fletchowns 14y ago
Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans What does that have to do with any of the things he mentioned in the post?
- apawloski 14y ago
  Nothing. It's a typical ad hominem attack and the parent comment either 1) doesn't understand that this does nothing to invalidate an argument or 2) doesn't care.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy Basically, it's ok for him to charge for his right of image, it's ok for the GPL to place limits on IP, but it's not ok for others to charge for other rights like IP or limit the ways their IP can be used (Right of image is not IP, it's a Personality right, still - and I agree with the GPL)
  - rhizome 14y ago
    So you'd criticize him for speaking against any limits?

bobsy 14y ago

Interesting article. When you make an alternative to Amazon which has a similar selection and shipping time I will consider it. I do not have a local book shop. My supermarket which is strangling farmers, killing off grocers, butchers, video game shops etc only have the best sellers list. I have yet to find an alternative which is consistently cheap and delivers next day or the day after with free shipping.. To your points. > Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom This is no different from music. I could choose to buy a physical book but sometimes I feel that my kindle could get it faster and I could save space in my house which already is littered with large books. > Amazon's on-line music "sales" have some of the same problems as the ebooks This is the same as a number of other music retailers. If I want to avoid this I will get a DVD. Just because Amazon offers you a convenient option doesn't mean you have to take it. I would rather save space in my house and save the environment by purchasing digital music than buy a CD which will be scanned onto my computer once then left on a shelf. > Amazon's shipping in the US is done in a sweatshop Oh well.. this is something state officials should look into. I have seen the UK distribution center a number of times on the news and it looks alright. > Amazon cut off service to Wikileaks Oh well.. it is Amazon's service. Wikileaks can use another. I use a service and I cut people off fairly often due to the content they post. They broke my terms -> They go. The end. They can build their own software. Or in Wikileaks case.. find another host / make their own. > Amazon squeezes small publishers. Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. Sometimes people get trodden on. If Amazon won't do you an agreeable deal go elsewhere. Make an organization with similar companies and reject any deals which you cannot agree to. Throw your weight behind a different ebook reader. > Amazon doesn't just compete with independent book stores, it arrogantly seeks to destroy them. Please.. there are app's like this which compare prices all over the place. Again. Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. When I buy from a bookshop I know I am paying more. That is fine because I can see the book, touch the book and take it home then and there. Most people know this. Sometimes a local book store cannot sell a book even remotely competitively. An app which told me this would be nice. I don't mind paying a few pounds more in a store. When it is £5-10 there is a problem with the shop. > Amazon appears to treat self-published authors well, but it can unilaterally cut the price of their books. And when it does, the authors are the ones who lose. It is an authors choice whether they use the publishing platform or not. I wouldn't after hearing how Amazon auto-discounted an authors book and the author got screwed. > Amazon censored an ebook that exposed how ebook bestseller lists can be manipulated (and therefore are meaningless). Is this so unexpected? Guy tries to publish book on Amazon about how to game the Amazon review and ranking system... > Amazon was a member of ALEC. Oh well. Amazon isn't a saint. They are responsible for putting a number of small businesses out of business. They damage the high street. However.. look at any major superstore. Its just the evolution of business. I will not be boycotting Amazon any time soon.

rickdale 14y ago

The only legitimate reason I can think of to not order off of Amazon is because sometimes you end up paying for express shipping when they would have got the item out to you in the same amount of time anyway.

mark_l_watson 14y ago

A complex subject. Stallman makes valid points, we do need fair laws that keep corporations from bad behavior while otherwise staying out of their way to do business. I vote with my wallet at two extremes. Locally, I enjoy spending money at the small businesses in my neighborhood that I really hope stay in business and make a fair profit. At the other end of the business-size spectrum, I love the convenience of Amazon for ordering physical goods and having them delivered to my home in the mountains. I understand the negative aspects of DRM but I really like the Kindle platform. It is true that I may not always have access in the distant future to what I have bought, but in most cases I won't want a lot of what I buy to read in 10 years (and it will probably be available for as long as I live anyway). I pay a lot less (usually) for Kindle format books and they are available on all of my devices, with automatic syncing to furthest location read. Also, my study/home office is already filled to capacity with bookshelves - now I just buy really special books (on Go, Chess, Art books, some classic computer science, etc.) as physical books and enjoy otherwise saving the space on my bookshelves.

bartv331 14y ago

But it's cheaper!!! ;-) This is a free market, Amazon wins, the other loses. End of story. Just ordered another book ON AMAZON. Free shipping, no sales tax!!

jlgreco 14y ago
Gentle reminder: unless your state doesn't have sales tax, you probably still have to pay use tax.

jspthrowaway 14y ago

The split personality in the HN community is interesting. On one hand, you have things like "never let the perfect be the enemy of the good; better to have a product that works than to get everything right". On the other, you have things like "Amazon puts DRM on their ebooks and terminated Wikileaks. Boycott everything they do." Amazon is innovative enough and has benefited my life enough that I'm willing to sacrifice some freedoms for that convenience. Richard Stallman, however, cannot be happy if you make that decision on your own. Eventually, you have to ask yourself if you want to spend your life obeying what an influential person tells you to do (and sacrifice conveniences to hold the world to a higher standard which will never be realized), or realize that ships sail and you'd rather be on the ship than yelling at it with clenched fist from the harbor.

Codhisattva 14y ago
I'm sure there's a helluva lot more opinions than those two among the readers of Hacker News. The best communities are diverse.

kmfrk 14y ago

A lot of people are bringing up the consumer issues related to using Amazon. But also consider the implications for publishers.

jrockway 14y ago

Seems unfair for Stallman to criticize the fact that they stopped funding ALEC after many people asked them too. It's kind of like taking hostages, having all your demands met, and then killing all the hostages anyway. Why will Amazon change if we criticize them for doing something we asked them to do?

listic 14y ago

What is Amazon's current stance on ebook DRM? Did they abandon it yet?

hyhyhy 14y ago

All this from the guy who eats something he picked from his foot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ at 1':52" into the video.

robertp 14y ago

UPS and robots do shipping now. That article he cited is old.

piffey 14y ago
This is true, Amazon is moving toward more automated shipping. It will lower prices and improve conditions for workers that remain. One evil cured, eh? http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/19/amazon-acquires-online-fulfillment-company-kiva-systems-for-775-million-in-cash/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/19/amazon-acquires-online-fulf...
adrr 14y ago
That could be a negative since you removed a bunch of jobs. Also working in 100 degree warehouse isn't that bad, i spent many summers working on a farm in a lot worse conditions(heat, sun and ankle deep in pig manure). Using the same logic we should stop eating.
- Firehed 14y ago
  I don't see how jobs for the sake of jobs is of real benefit to society. Just as programmers tend to automate away humans with small shells scripts (costs go down, reliability increases), a robot automating away inventory picking is a good thing (lower cost, vastly decreased chance of injuries, possibility of "dark" warehouses, 24-hour operation, etc) Maybe I'm being very 1% here (despite not being even remotely near that income bracket), but I'd be perfectly happy to see machines replace humans in nearly all unskilled labor situations. If Amazon is ahead of the curve here, good for them - it's one of the reasons I own [a tiny amount of] AMZN stock. Getting people doing something that requires thinking because we've eliminated mindless work is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. That won't require everyone in the world have a four-year formal education; there are plenty of opportunities that don't require years of specialized training where you're not likely to be replaced by a couple of servos or a few lines of bash.

maxharris 14y ago

What about reasons not to listen to Stallman? There are other ethical views than just his. In addition to being practical, it's morally good for individual programmers to work on commercial products solely for their own long-term gain, and that doing so doesn't come at the expense of others. Others are free to buy those products if they wish. The fact that so many people choose to do so is evidence of the tremendous value that paid developers and companies provide.

AlexeiSadeski 14y ago

I don't find a single one of these "reasons" even remotely compelling as cause not to do business with Amazon. Were I to run Amazon tomorrow, I would change not one of these policies.

iterative 14y ago

A lot of Stallman's points are nonsense, but the one about ALEC is particularly stupid and misinformed. ALEC, which is basically a think tank, has been the subject of a campaign of demonization by the totalitarian left, which has unfortunately been very effective in getting some of their contributors to cut off funding. If you don't like ALEC's solutions to problems, then by all means you should start your own damn foundation and promote out your own set of "model bills" and position papers, instead of trying silence ALEC's.

SeppoErviala 14y ago

The number 1 reason is the practice of letting you click all the way to "ship to address" screen before telling you that they cannot ship the selected item to your location. This is extremely frustrating! Why are they advertising products they are not willing to sell? (This problem is rampant in Finland, probably not applicable to USA)