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It's depressing because to a typical cynical programmer (and we're prone to be cynics spending our time looking for bugs) selling anything has a coat of slime o

It's depressing because to a typical cynical programmer (and we're prone to be cynics spending our time looking for bugs) selling anything has a coat of slime on it. Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc... Good programming is the search for The Right Way to solve a particular problem, Truth if you will. Marketing and sales seem to be about un-Truth. It is little wonder that there are so many programmers who look at sales/marketing with disdain.

ahoyhere 14y ago
It's actually an extremely powerful marketing technique to tell people exactly who the product is wrong for. It's an extremely powerful marketing technique to shape the product from its very beginning to discourage certain types of customers. Honesty is a killer app in marketing, assuming you pick your customer base (audience) carefully. That's how I've made lots of money. How you are describing "marketing" is actually "marketing" as you describe it -- simplified, glossed over, and half-true at best.
- Evbn 14y ago
  The technique you describe here is not the same as honesty. Example: "This product is not for uncreative people who think you have to work 60 he's a week at a desk to retire at 70." is a subtle appeal to snobbery/wishful thinking that makes them want to prove they are creative get-aheaders, and they can "prove" that buy joining your customer base.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    Where on any of our product pages is there a phrase like that? On the other hand, check out patio11's Lifecycle Emails page for frank honesty such as: "Do you not have a shipped product yet? Ship something. Do not buy this course. Well-implemented lifecycle emails do not ship software." Or, on the sales page for my class, "If you can’t make these chats on a regular basis, you should not attend." Where's the sexy ego-revving in these simple statements?
    - orangethirty 14y ago
      Those are disqualifiers, which are great sales tool. It basically auto-qualifies a client by making him/her decide from the start if they are going to buy depending on their current situation. Other examples might be: - You have a steady job, but nobody will sell you a car? If you can get some proof of employment I will sel lyou a car. Today! - Tired of paying a lot of money for quality web hosting? Don't want to deal with the hassle of a VPS? If yu are willing to get your fingers dirty every few weeks in exchange of great prices, service and flexibility, then you might want to look us up. wonderfullyawesomesuperwebhosting.com is the addres you might want to visit right now. Or dont.
ryanwaggoner 14y ago
Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives. It's extremely telling that you consider this to be an accurate description of marketing.
- mingmecca 14y ago
  Please explain.
  - ryanwaggoner 14y ago
    Programmer: "Programmers think that X is Y because X is Y."
kanamekun 14y ago
I like the idea that good programming is a search for Truth and the Right Way to solve a particular type of problem. What struck me is that good Marketing is actually the exact same search. There are lots of bad programmers and lots of bad marketers (hard to say which are in more abundant supply). It may seem like there are more bad marketers, since we're more likely to be aware when we see "deceptions and half-truths" in sales/marketing... after all, we're very likely to be exposed to marketing in our daily life. When you get down to it though, a really good programmer and a really good marketer are both rare commodities. Marketing is not inherently more evil than programming. They are just both usually done poorly, and we all suffer as a result.
petercooper 14y ago
Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc... That's life. Being ultra logical is the slimy oddity, not the nitty gritty of life. When you're dating, applying for a job, or trying to get elected as town mayor, you don't throw it all on the table right away and say, hey, I've got a bowel problem, I occasionally pleasure myself to pictures of vegetables, and I have a prescription drug habit.. even though all of us have various things of this nature under our hats (well, maybe not the vegetable one..)
orangethirty 14y ago
I wish I could pull out a chair and have a long talk about marketing with you. Not because I think you are wrong, obtuse, or even a cynic. You are not. But due to the fact that you sound exactly like me some years ago. Hopefully, the following lines will save you the trouble I faced, and the failures I had to crawl out of. Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc... Marketing is about showcasing the world your ideas. It is not about deception, although some people do deceieve others through it. Real marketing, the one you and me experience at a hundred percent is something that you don't realize exists. You never heard it. Saw it. Or even thought of it. It simply resonates with your ideas, your self, and your values. The aroma of a pure rythmic parallelism between us and what we want to become. That is marketing. In the 1980's, when Steve Jobs set out to market Apple, he understood the true meaning of marketing. Jobs set out to showcase the world the ideas behind Apple. That is why the original series of advertisements set out to show Apple as more than a computer company. It was an idea. A new idea. The computer did not have to be boring, or tied down to social structures. It was fun. Modern. The future. Apple was about freedom from the regular business computer. That idea is still living these days in the form of iDevices and Macs. In a world of boring Windows-based PCs, the Apple computer and device are still showcasing the original Apple idea. There is a better way to use technology. Such way is the Apple way (according to their marketing, not my opinion). Did it work for Apple? Yes. Did Jobs set out to deceive people? No. Could they have sold millions and millions of devices based on a marketing lie? No. The problem with us hackers is that we tend to forget that the world is not all black and white. Not every salesman is out to get us. Some really do want to help us. Like that insurance agent selling Cancer policies. Go ahead and talk to one of them. Ask them how many people has the policies he sells saved from starving. How many children will have an education or even a roof to live because their deceased parent bought a Cancer policy from him/her. For a programmer, a Cancer policy is just a lottery. For the rest of the world, it can be the difference between life and death. That is why they are marketed like that. It is real.
danielharan 14y ago
"Marketing and sales seem to be about un-Truth" Although it's easy to see why you would think this, it is a misconception that is costing you dearly, in ways you don't even understand yet. I highly recommend you get a copy of "Three Steps to Yes: The Gentle Art of Getting Your Way" by Gene Bedell. He applies the same sales principles to any social situation where you're trying to get your way, whether convincing a partner to go on vacation to your chosen destination or selling software. Suppose your partner just wants to tan at the beach, but you want to go rock climbing. Crucially, they may not want to admit (even to themselves) that this is what they want. A bit of empathy and creative thinking can lead to a solution where e.g. you go climbing a few days and you stay at a hotel with a nice spa for them. That software buyer may only be interested in not losing their job, rather than the cost savings of the software. How do you show that person that you've done this at other companies to put them at ease? Can you see how useful understanding that prospects mentality could be? Marketing is this kind of work at a larger scale. What it is people want to buy? How will you price it? Where will people find out about it and buy it? These fundamentals are hard to pin down and some practitioners are sleazy liars. Yet even without being an entrepreneur, just as an employee, you can try to answer those questions -- and that's marketing. Learning more about these fields will let you spot good practitioners; working with them can be a boon to your career.

ahoyhere 14y ago

It's actually an extremely powerful marketing technique to tell people exactly who the product is wrong for. It's an extremely powerful marketing technique to shape the product from its very beginning to discourage certain types of customers. Honesty is a killer app in marketing, assuming you pick your customer base (audience) carefully. That's how I've made lots of money. How you are describing "marketing" is actually "marketing" as you describe it -- simplified, glossed over, and half-true at best.

Evbn 14y ago
The technique you describe here is not the same as honesty. Example: "This product is not for uncreative people who think you have to work 60 he's a week at a desk to retire at 70." is a subtle appeal to snobbery/wishful thinking that makes them want to prove they are creative get-aheaders, and they can "prove" that buy joining your customer base.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  Where on any of our product pages is there a phrase like that? On the other hand, check out patio11's Lifecycle Emails page for frank honesty such as: "Do you not have a shipped product yet? Ship something. Do not buy this course. Well-implemented lifecycle emails do not ship software." Or, on the sales page for my class, "If you can’t make these chats on a regular basis, you should not attend." Where's the sexy ego-revving in these simple statements?
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    Those are disqualifiers, which are great sales tool. It basically auto-qualifies a client by making him/her decide from the start if they are going to buy depending on their current situation. Other examples might be: - You have a steady job, but nobody will sell you a car? If you can get some proof of employment I will sel lyou a car. Today! - Tired of paying a lot of money for quality web hosting? Don't want to deal with the hassle of a VPS? If yu are willing to get your fingers dirty every few weeks in exchange of great prices, service and flexibility, then you might want to look us up. wonderfullyawesomesuperwebhosting.com is the addres you might want to visit right now. Or dont.

ryanwaggoner 14y ago

Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives. It's extremely telling that you consider this to be an accurate description of marketing.

mingmecca 14y ago
Please explain.
- ryanwaggoner 14y ago
  Programmer: "Programmers think that X is Y because X is Y."

kanamekun 14y ago

I like the idea that good programming is a search for Truth and the Right Way to solve a particular type of problem. What struck me is that good Marketing is actually the exact same search. There are lots of bad programmers and lots of bad marketers (hard to say which are in more abundant supply). It may seem like there are more bad marketers, since we're more likely to be aware when we see "deceptions and half-truths" in sales/marketing... after all, we're very likely to be exposed to marketing in our daily life. When you get down to it though, a really good programmer and a really good marketer are both rare commodities. Marketing is not inherently more evil than programming. They are just both usually done poorly, and we all suffer as a result.

petercooper 14y ago

Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc... That's life. Being ultra logical is the slimy oddity, not the nitty gritty of life. When you're dating, applying for a job, or trying to get elected as town mayor, you don't throw it all on the table right away and say, hey, I've got a bowel problem, I occasionally pleasure myself to pictures of vegetables, and I have a prescription drug habit.. even though all of us have various things of this nature under our hats (well, maybe not the vegetable one..)

orangethirty 14y ago

I wish I could pull out a chair and have a long talk about marketing with you. Not because I think you are wrong, obtuse, or even a cynic. You are not. But due to the fact that you sound exactly like me some years ago. Hopefully, the following lines will save you the trouble I faced, and the failures I had to crawl out of. Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc... Marketing is about showcasing the world your ideas. It is not about deception, although some people do deceieve others through it. Real marketing, the one you and me experience at a hundred percent is something that you don't realize exists. You never heard it. Saw it. Or even thought of it. It simply resonates with your ideas, your self, and your values. The aroma of a pure rythmic parallelism between us and what we want to become. That is marketing. In the 1980's, when Steve Jobs set out to market Apple, he understood the true meaning of marketing. Jobs set out to showcase the world the ideas behind Apple. That is why the original series of advertisements set out to show Apple as more than a computer company. It was an idea. A new idea. The computer did not have to be boring, or tied down to social structures. It was fun. Modern. The future. Apple was about freedom from the regular business computer. That idea is still living these days in the form of iDevices and Macs. In a world of boring Windows-based PCs, the Apple computer and device are still showcasing the original Apple idea. There is a better way to use technology. Such way is the Apple way (according to their marketing, not my opinion). Did it work for Apple? Yes. Did Jobs set out to deceive people? No. Could they have sold millions and millions of devices based on a marketing lie? No. The problem with us hackers is that we tend to forget that the world is not all black and white. Not every salesman is out to get us. Some really do want to help us. Like that insurance agent selling Cancer policies. Go ahead and talk to one of them. Ask them how many people has the policies he sells saved from starving. How many children will have an education or even a roof to live because their deceased parent bought a Cancer policy from him/her. For a programmer, a Cancer policy is just a lottery. For the rest of the world, it can be the difference between life and death. That is why they are marketed like that. It is real.

danielharan 14y ago

"Marketing and sales seem to be about un-Truth" Although it's easy to see why you would think this, it is a misconception that is costing you dearly, in ways you don't even understand yet. I highly recommend you get a copy of "Three Steps to Yes: The Gentle Art of Getting Your Way" by Gene Bedell. He applies the same sales principles to any social situation where you're trying to get your way, whether convincing a partner to go on vacation to your chosen destination or selling software. Suppose your partner just wants to tan at the beach, but you want to go rock climbing. Crucially, they may not want to admit (even to themselves) that this is what they want. A bit of empathy and creative thinking can lead to a solution where e.g. you go climbing a few days and you stay at a hotel with a nice spa for them. That software buyer may only be interested in not losing their job, rather than the cost savings of the software. How do you show that person that you've done this at other companies to put them at ease? Can you see how useful understanding that prospects mentality could be? Marketing is this kind of work at a larger scale. What it is people want to buy? How will you price it? Where will people find out about it and buy it? These fundamentals are hard to pin down and some practitioners are sleazy liars. Yet even without being an entrepreneur, just as an employee, you can try to answer those questions -- and that's marketing. Learning more about these fields will let you spot good practitioners; working with them can be a boon to your career.