4 ms·

> The thing that has always bothered me about the 12-step program is that the end goal seems to always be abstinence, at least in the context of alcoholism. Th

by rayiner 10mo ago

> The thing that has always bothered me about the 12-step program is that the end goal seems to always be abstinence, at least in the context of alcoholism. This is where religion reflects cultural technology that gets lost in the secular translation. Secularists vastly overestimate man’s control over himself and his world. Most people lack the impulse control to partake in their vices responsibly. That’s why most Americans are fat. We have a world surrounded by temptation—snacks available everywhere—and we tell people to partake responsibly but they can’t do that. Most people don’t have that same relationship with alcohol or cigarettes, but for the many people who do it’s unrealistic for them to think they can just drink responsibly.

PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago
> Secularists vastly overestimate man’s control over himself and his world. I'd prefer if you didn't generalize here, especially since there is no "secularist bible" that lays out what "secularists" believe (or do not believe).
- ggggffggggg 10mo ago
  There’s no more a Christian bible in that sense — something that lays out what Christians believe. “X believes Y ” almost invariably just means “I think most X I’ve come across seem to believe something like Y”. Read it as such.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago
    There's a book that describes what Christians believe about the life of Jesus Christ, and is used by most Christian priests to illustrate and reinforce their homilies and lessons to their lay folk. The same book is widely read by many denominations of Christians as a source of insight into the religious intent of Jesus Christ, even if the conclusions they draw from it may vary. There are also other books written by both lay authors and those with theological credentials that seek to describe what a "good" Christian should believe and do, though to be fair, none of them are universal across the Christian faith (*). No such work exists for "secularists". (*) though fair enough, even "The Bible" doesn't entirely meet that standard given disagreements between both the high level denominations (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant) and the subdivisions within each.
    - defrost 10mo ago
      More accurately; Because the Bible is not a single book but a complex arrangement of at least 66 books (Roman Catholic Bibles include another seven books that Protestants do not recognize) written over many years by multiple authors, the question concerning versions can be complicated. One major division is stems from Old Testament versions; Roman Catholic Bibles are all derived from the Septuagint version (3rd Century BC translation of original Hebrew scriptures into Koine Greek) of the Old Testament, whereas Protestant Bibles returned to the original Hebrew texts. There are over 450 known versions of the Bible in English alone. While there are estimates of several thousand distinct christian dennominations, the *major* categories are Catholic (50.1%), Protestant (36.7%), Orthodox, including Eastern and Oriental communions (11.9%), Other (1.30%). One Christian blog walks through "just" 46 Christian denominations while throwing out an estimate of some 45,000 distinct variations: https://www.bartehrman.com/christian-denominations/ https://www.bartehrman.com/christian-denominations/ I don't mean to nitpick, I grew up in one of the last "remote areas" of the planet and we were inundated with missionaries (when listed (now not) we had at least a hundred different types of christian mission here) that all had beliefs that only superficially appeared similar. One wing of my larger extended family is fractured by a run of Christian brothers and sisters all raised catholic, all with military service, and all progressing to different barely compatible denominations and scarcely talking since. > No such work exists for "secularists". Secularists also have at least 66 books to draw on for morals, ethics, and common human values. It's debatable whether a book is even required to act with cooperation and respect with most others.
    - ggggffggggg 10mo ago
      There’s a book. Some Christians have even read it! That’s about all you can say about the accuracy of the bible in describing what Christians believe. For instance saying “Christians believe in killing men that have sex with menstruating women” is pretty ridiculous.
rainsford 10mo ago
The ubiquity of fat religious Americans with no impulse control suggests that religious vs secular is perhaps not the right reference frame to examine this particular issue. Your argument about abstinence being the most practical solution for some people is a reasonable one, no need to join the bandwagon and also make it a pointless culture war issue.
- rayiner 10mo ago
  I'm not making a culture war point, I'm comparing philosophies in secular terms. It just so happens that, in America, religious people tend to focus on abstinence and secular people tend to focus on responsible enjoyment. Most American denominations do not treat food as sinful, so the prevalence of fat religious Americans isn't a rebuttal to my point. If you look at denomations that do, the statistics are quite remarkable. Mormonism, for example, is a remarkable cultural technology: https://www.deseret.com/2010/4/13/20375744/ucla-study-proves-mormons-live-longer https://www.deseret.com/2010/4/13/20375744/ucla-study-proves.... Another example would be New England congregationalists, who have an ethos that "food is for fuel, not for enjoyment." We have many retirees from that demographic in my town and they're all unusually thin and healthy.
  - kelipso 10mo ago
    Another example, the Seventh-day Adventists, even studied for their longevity.
  - toasterlovin 10mo ago
    FWIW, Mormons and New England Congregationalists are essentially offshoots of the same ethnic group (Puritans), so there may be a genetic confound.
  - ajam1507 10mo ago
    This ignores the cost of living as a mormon for 85 years
    - rayiner 10mo ago
jalapenos 10mo ago
Pretty much. Even to the non-religious, when you look comparatively at secular (which heavily overlaps with: leftist) cultures vs religious ones, one can't help but surmise that the goal was to open the gates to being as degenerate as a creative mind can come up with.
- defrost 10mo ago
  It's rare to met a community of secularists as degenerate as a Christian Brothers community. eg. and on the record * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/02/child-migrants-shipped-to-western-australia-tell-of-abuse-by-christian-brothers https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/02/child-migran... * https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies/case-study-11-christian-brothers https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies/ca... * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-keaney-bindoon/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-kea... Still, I concede your point that buggery and physical child abuse at an industrial scale isn't especially creative and just the usual dull grind played out again and again.

by rayiner 10mo ago

PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago

> Secularists vastly overestimate man’s control over himself and his world. I'd prefer if you didn't generalize here, especially since there is no "secularist bible" that lays out what "secularists" believe (or do not believe).

ggggffggggg 10mo ago
There’s no more a Christian bible in that sense — something that lays out what Christians believe. “X believes Y ” almost invariably just means “I think most X I’ve come across seem to believe something like Y”. Read it as such.
- PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago
  There's a book that describes what Christians believe about the life of Jesus Christ, and is used by most Christian priests to illustrate and reinforce their homilies and lessons to their lay folk. The same book is widely read by many denominations of Christians as a source of insight into the religious intent of Jesus Christ, even if the conclusions they draw from it may vary. There are also other books written by both lay authors and those with theological credentials that seek to describe what a "good" Christian should believe and do, though to be fair, none of them are universal across the Christian faith (*). No such work exists for "secularists". (*) though fair enough, even "The Bible" doesn't entirely meet that standard given disagreements between both the high level denominations (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant) and the subdivisions within each.
  - defrost 10mo ago
    More accurately; Because the Bible is not a single book but a complex arrangement of at least 66 books (Roman Catholic Bibles include another seven books that Protestants do not recognize) written over many years by multiple authors, the question concerning versions can be complicated. One major division is stems from Old Testament versions; Roman Catholic Bibles are all derived from the Septuagint version (3rd Century BC translation of original Hebrew scriptures into Koine Greek) of the Old Testament, whereas Protestant Bibles returned to the original Hebrew texts. There are over 450 known versions of the Bible in English alone. While there are estimates of several thousand distinct christian dennominations, the *major* categories are Catholic (50.1%), Protestant (36.7%), Orthodox, including Eastern and Oriental communions (11.9%), Other (1.30%). One Christian blog walks through "just" 46 Christian denominations while throwing out an estimate of some 45,000 distinct variations: https://www.bartehrman.com/christian-denominations/ https://www.bartehrman.com/christian-denominations/ I don't mean to nitpick, I grew up in one of the last "remote areas" of the planet and we were inundated with missionaries (when listed (now not) we had at least a hundred different types of christian mission here) that all had beliefs that only superficially appeared similar. One wing of my larger extended family is fractured by a run of Christian brothers and sisters all raised catholic, all with military service, and all progressing to different barely compatible denominations and scarcely talking since. > No such work exists for "secularists". Secularists also have at least 66 books to draw on for morals, ethics, and common human values. It's debatable whether a book is even required to act with cooperation and respect with most others.
  - ggggffggggg 10mo ago
    There’s a book. Some Christians have even read it! That’s about all you can say about the accuracy of the bible in describing what Christians believe. For instance saying “Christians believe in killing men that have sex with menstruating women” is pretty ridiculous.

rainsford 10mo ago

The ubiquity of fat religious Americans with no impulse control suggests that religious vs secular is perhaps not the right reference frame to examine this particular issue. Your argument about abstinence being the most practical solution for some people is a reasonable one, no need to join the bandwagon and also make it a pointless culture war issue.

rayiner 10mo ago
I'm not making a culture war point, I'm comparing philosophies in secular terms. It just so happens that, in America, religious people tend to focus on abstinence and secular people tend to focus on responsible enjoyment. Most American denominations do not treat food as sinful, so the prevalence of fat religious Americans isn't a rebuttal to my point. If you look at denomations that do, the statistics are quite remarkable. Mormonism, for example, is a remarkable cultural technology: https://www.deseret.com/2010/4/13/20375744/ucla-study-proves-mormons-live-longer https://www.deseret.com/2010/4/13/20375744/ucla-study-proves.... Another example would be New England congregationalists, who have an ethos that "food is for fuel, not for enjoyment." We have many retirees from that demographic in my town and they're all unusually thin and healthy.
- kelipso 10mo ago
  Another example, the Seventh-day Adventists, even studied for their longevity.
- toasterlovin 10mo ago
  FWIW, Mormons and New England Congregationalists are essentially offshoots of the same ethnic group (Puritans), so there may be a genetic confound.
- ajam1507 10mo ago
  This ignores the cost of living as a mormon for 85 years
  - rayiner 10mo ago

jalapenos 10mo ago

Pretty much. Even to the non-religious, when you look comparatively at secular (which heavily overlaps with: leftist) cultures vs religious ones, one can't help but surmise that the goal was to open the gates to being as degenerate as a creative mind can come up with.

defrost 10mo ago
It's rare to met a community of secularists as degenerate as a Christian Brothers community. eg. and on the record * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/02/child-migrants-shipped-to-western-australia-tell-of-abuse-by-christian-brothers https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/02/child-migran... * https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies/case-study-11-christian-brothers https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies/ca... * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-keaney-bindoon/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-kea... Still, I concede your point that buggery and physical child abuse at an industrial scale isn't especially creative and just the usual dull grind played out again and again.