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If you see any, be sure to alert the community. I was all caught up in this touching article about how disgustingly backwards any non-universal healthcare syste

If you see any, be sure to alert the community. I was all caught up in this touching article about how disgustingly backwards any non-universal healthcare system is. Sorry, but providing basic free healthcare is no more a political issue than adopting the metric system or providing clean drinking water. Just because there are a handful of countries that still try to justify their backwards ridiculousness under the thin veneer of "politics", much like those who try to take civil rights away, doesn't mean this isn't a settled issue for 99% of the world and fair game to discuss. I would love to see the responses to a Muslim extremist who pops into the comments on an article about stoning an adulterer to death to mention that "we should probably be avoiding politics". Something tells me other commenters would tear his head off, and rightfully so. Just because you can find a place that's still ridiculous enough to try and defend the practice doesn't instantly make it an untouchable political issue.

davidw 14y ago
Other issues that are way more important than hacking and startups: * Wars. * Human rights. * The fact that people die of hunger. And yet, those are all not really on-topic for this site either. It would be extremely easy to crowd out all the 'on topic' stories with things that are vastly more important "in the grand scheme of things", yet it would ruin the nature of this site. Articles about stoning women are also, IMO, off topic, so the problem with the 'muslim extremist' simply shouldn't happen. (BTW, I much prefer the health care situation here in Italy than in my native US, but discussing it is just not what this site is about.)
- shinratdr 14y ago
  If you find an article that "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" on those topics then please submit them. Don't conflate HN with only startup news. It has never had that restriction, it's more of a primary focus. HN is not /r/StartUps. There are no hard rules here on specific content, only community consensus via voting and occasional hands-on moderation.
  - davidw 14y ago
    There's nothing whatsoever 'intellectually gratifying' about this article. It's a way to tug at people's emotions in order to attempt to sway their opinions. And I say that as someone who agrees with the point of the article.
    - shinratdr 14y ago
      I disagree. Tugging at emotions and learning something aren't mutually exclusive. As someone who lives outside of the US, I had never envisioned this scenario before. It's jarring every time, and you never really wrap your head around the horrible possibilities. Of all the problems I'm aware of with the US healthcare system, I never thought of someone refusing life-saving treatment because their kids would have to deal with the bill. Deferring treatment, sure. But I figured if you're dead, you're dead. The fact that they chase your relatives for the bill after you die is really disgusting and something I hadn't thought about until this article painted that picture for me, and now I'm involved in multiple discussions about it. I would say I found it intellectually gratifying.
- army 14y ago
  RE: the article not being "intellectually gratifying". The situation sounds enormously distressing but the author's writing style isn't overwrought at all. Even on a purely intellectual level, this is a devastating rebuttal of the point that "nobody dies from lack of health insurance". On the level of common decency, what is wrong with treating the people in the story as regular human beings with social ties, rather than some sort of people in the abstract?
- lostlogin 14y ago
  I actually do see articles in the above veins often, and they are very interesting and appreciated. They often get called off topic too, but the guidelines for HN clearly allow them and actually encourage them.
sneak 14y ago
> Sorry, but providing basic free healthcare is no more a political issue than adopting the metric system or providing clean drinking water. Americans have to pay for their drinking water just like they have to pay for their healthcare. Lest you misunderstand me: Why shouldn't "food" be included, as well? And heat?
- shinratdr 14y ago
  > Lest you misunderstand me It's impossible to misunderstand you. You're so clearly a republican/libertarian American trying to draw me into a carefully constructed argument as to why I should deny something the rest of the world decided long ago is a basic human right. Sorry, not interested. I also am not open to discussions on switching Canada to the imperial system, instituting Sharia law, re-enslaving black people, or any other ridiculous throwbacks. The rest of the world has moved on, feel free to join us whenever you get your act together.
  - ryanwaggoner 14y ago
    Please stop or leave. These kinds of name-calling and rude attacks on people that you disagree with are completely unbecoming and counterproductive to any rational discussion.
    - shinratdr 14y ago
      I don't have rational discussions about settled issues such as the above, much like my example topics. Just like if someone asked me "Why do blacks have all these rights?" I just simply won't entertain the thought long enough to form an argument, I'm just going to write you off. I don't see any name calling, unless you consider "American", "Republican" or "Libertarian" to be insults. My reply had a snide tone, however that was completely intentional and I stand by it. If you feel it's a negative contribution to the community overall then you're more than welcome to to downvote me and the discussion will naturally die out. However I'm not going to "stop or leave" because of your melodramatic plea.
      - 14y ago
ryanwaggoner 14y ago
This comment is an excellent example of why we don't want articles like this on HN. Quotes like this are pure garbage and have no place in any place of intellectual discourse: how disgustingly backwards any non-universal healthcare system is backwards ridiculousness under the thin veneer of "politics", much like those who try to take civil rights away Regardless of how you feel about universal healthcare, it's not true that it's a settled issue for 99% of the world (even within the countries that have it), that it's remotely the same as taking away civil rights, or that there's no discussion to be had about the economics and policy implications of universal healthcare. But like a lot of other issues, this is apparently one of those things that makes people on both sides get pants-on-head stupid and start insulting the other side and accusing them of pure malice. There are plenty of places for you to vent about this (/r/politics would love you), but HN isn't it.

davidw 14y ago

Other issues that are way more important than hacking and startups: * Wars. * Human rights. * The fact that people die of hunger. And yet, those are all not really on-topic for this site either. It would be extremely easy to crowd out all the 'on topic' stories with things that are vastly more important "in the grand scheme of things", yet it would ruin the nature of this site. Articles about stoning women are also, IMO, off topic, so the problem with the 'muslim extremist' simply shouldn't happen. (BTW, I much prefer the health care situation here in Italy than in my native US, but discussing it is just not what this site is about.)

shinratdr 14y ago
If you find an article that "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" on those topics then please submit them. Don't conflate HN with only startup news. It has never had that restriction, it's more of a primary focus. HN is not /r/StartUps. There are no hard rules here on specific content, only community consensus via voting and occasional hands-on moderation.
- davidw 14y ago
  There's nothing whatsoever 'intellectually gratifying' about this article. It's a way to tug at people's emotions in order to attempt to sway their opinions. And I say that as someone who agrees with the point of the article.
  - shinratdr 14y ago
    I disagree. Tugging at emotions and learning something aren't mutually exclusive. As someone who lives outside of the US, I had never envisioned this scenario before. It's jarring every time, and you never really wrap your head around the horrible possibilities. Of all the problems I'm aware of with the US healthcare system, I never thought of someone refusing life-saving treatment because their kids would have to deal with the bill. Deferring treatment, sure. But I figured if you're dead, you're dead. The fact that they chase your relatives for the bill after you die is really disgusting and something I hadn't thought about until this article painted that picture for me, and now I'm involved in multiple discussions about it. I would say I found it intellectually gratifying.
army 14y ago
RE: the article not being "intellectually gratifying". The situation sounds enormously distressing but the author's writing style isn't overwrought at all. Even on a purely intellectual level, this is a devastating rebuttal of the point that "nobody dies from lack of health insurance". On the level of common decency, what is wrong with treating the people in the story as regular human beings with social ties, rather than some sort of people in the abstract?
lostlogin 14y ago
I actually do see articles in the above veins often, and they are very interesting and appreciated. They often get called off topic too, but the guidelines for HN clearly allow them and actually encourage them.

sneak 14y ago

> Sorry, but providing basic free healthcare is no more a political issue than adopting the metric system or providing clean drinking water. Americans have to pay for their drinking water just like they have to pay for their healthcare. Lest you misunderstand me: Why shouldn't "food" be included, as well? And heat?

shinratdr 14y ago
> Lest you misunderstand me It's impossible to misunderstand you. You're so clearly a republican/libertarian American trying to draw me into a carefully constructed argument as to why I should deny something the rest of the world decided long ago is a basic human right. Sorry, not interested. I also am not open to discussions on switching Canada to the imperial system, instituting Sharia law, re-enslaving black people, or any other ridiculous throwbacks. The rest of the world has moved on, feel free to join us whenever you get your act together.
- ryanwaggoner 14y ago
  Please stop or leave. These kinds of name-calling and rude attacks on people that you disagree with are completely unbecoming and counterproductive to any rational discussion.
  - shinratdr 14y ago
    I don't have rational discussions about settled issues such as the above, much like my example topics. Just like if someone asked me "Why do blacks have all these rights?" I just simply won't entertain the thought long enough to form an argument, I'm just going to write you off. I don't see any name calling, unless you consider "American", "Republican" or "Libertarian" to be insults. My reply had a snide tone, however that was completely intentional and I stand by it. If you feel it's a negative contribution to the community overall then you're more than welcome to to downvote me and the discussion will naturally die out. However I'm not going to "stop or leave" because of your melodramatic plea.
    - 14y ago

ryanwaggoner 14y ago

This comment is an excellent example of why we don't want articles like this on HN. Quotes like this are pure garbage and have no place in any place of intellectual discourse: how disgustingly backwards any non-universal healthcare system is backwards ridiculousness under the thin veneer of "politics", much like those who try to take civil rights away Regardless of how you feel about universal healthcare, it's not true that it's a settled issue for 99% of the world (even within the countries that have it), that it's remotely the same as taking away civil rights, or that there's no discussion to be had about the economics and policy implications of universal healthcare. But like a lot of other issues, this is apparently one of those things that makes people on both sides get pants-on-head stupid and start insulting the other side and accusing them of pure malice. There are plenty of places for you to vent about this (/r/politics would love you), but HN isn't it.