9 ms·

Let me present another view why I dislike this kind of selling. I think this author sells a story of how they got rich and how you also can get rich (and how yo

by amix 14y ago

Let me present another view why I dislike this kind of selling. I think this author sells a story of how they got rich and how you also can get rich (and how you can do this easily) It's a common scheme and I think the only people that are getting rich by this are the people that are selling this kind of knowledge. The problem (at least based on my experience) is that building anything successful takes a huge amounts of dedication and effort -- there's also a large margin for failure. It's simply not something that's easy to reproduce and you probably won't make five-figures a month by selling things to a mailing list. Or create a 30x500 product and instantly be your own boss. And sure, there are some that are going to succeed at this (and great for them!), but presenting this like anybody will get rich by just following a scheme rings off alarm clocks, especially when this kind of knowledge is sold at a high cost.

bdunn 14y ago
Going to disagree. I think the level of likelihood for failing when you're shooting in the dark with your idea dú jour is SUBSTANTIALLY higher than when you mine audience pain points and build products around what people are asking for. That's all I'm doing. There's nothing that I'm doing that someone else can't.
- rushabh 14y ago
  You must also consider that most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess. Hats off to you guys for pulling it off and showing the way and inspiring other people. For most normal folk, it will take years of effort to reach this level in writing skills where they can build an audience on that strength. On a slightly different note, there are SAAS products like SalesForce, Quickbooks and the lot that are going to get the market by the brute force of their marketing budget. On the other extreme are people like you and patio11 and 37signals who take the effort to nurture an audience and generally pro-bootstrap. I think both strategies should work if executed well.
  - ryanwaggoner 14y ago
    most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess Maybe most people don't, but many (maybe most) here on HN do. Just look at the comments here. And even if you don't have the writing skills on day 1, you can improve via advice, feedback, various courses and books, and practice.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    "You must also consider that most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess" I always find this kind of statement interesting. Where do you think we got our "talent"? Writing our butts off. It's true -- for people willing to put in the effort to be good, being good pays dividends. If you're not willing to put in the work, you don't get the dividends. But nobody is a "born writer." As bdunn said in my virtual earshot earlier today, "Compare my first blog and my latest." He provided a lesson for my class recently and I made him rewrite it 3 times before it was in acceptable shape for editing. I'm sure the process was kinda sucky for him on the one hand, on the other hand, he grew hugely as a teacher. Yep, being willing to exercise a skill pays off.
    - alexknowshtml 14y ago
      +1 to the writing as a practice. I look back at things I wrote a year ago - sometimes as much as 6 years ago - and wonder if they were really written by me. Writing every day and being willing to do it even if it's just for throwaway is the only way to develop the talent. You know, just like every other talent, ever.
- larrys 14y ago
  Brennan, serious question here. What have you done and how long have you been doing it for to come along and offer advice which you are now selling to others? Checking the registration dates of your three domains I find the following: planscope.io - April 4, 2012 businessoffreelancing.com - Sept 19, 2012 doubleyourfreelancingrate.com - Aug 15, 2012 wearetitans.net (2008) (where you work?) doesn't have an about page so I can find out nothing about your past history or your role there. This is your twitter: https://twitter.com/brennandunn https://twitter.com/brennandunn Your HN profile shows very little and so does a search. So tell me a little more about why your advice is so valuable.
  - bdunn 14y ago
    Before planscope it was projectorpm.com, cease-and-desist copyright issue. The book and podcast are relatively new. I'm the owner of We Are Titans, my consultancy, and it's been around since 2008. Before that, I was just a freelancer. Also, http://hamptonroads.com/2011/11/small-tech-we-are-titans-offer-west-coast-values http://hamptonroads.com/2011/11/small-tech-we-are-titans-off... Lastly, I'm not trying to say I'm some uber consultant extraordinaire. But I know what's worked for me, and have had a serious amount of positive reception (success stories) from my book. I think that's what matters most.
    - larrys 14y ago
      If I challenge you it's for discussion. Also to point out that others might be thinking the things that I think (at least some people) but not raise the issue. And you could loose business from them. They might look at your planscope page and note that there aren't bios on anyone. That may be important to them. Now if you're a 1 person company there could be a strategic reason for doing that ("better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"). But if you have a "crew" why not do more than just include a picture? I've been observing business for a long long time. You will do great because you've got the proper degree of BS mixed together with things that you've learned in a short period of time and the ability to take advantage of people's generally trusting nature. Nothing wrong with that. When I started my first business (long time ago) I didn't have any employees and I had a big customer that wanted to visit (physical location - about 1500sf). So I brought in people to just stand around and look like I had employees. I got the contract and kept it for almost 5 or 6 years. I'm lucky that the person giving the contract wasn't me and wasn't able to see through it. Added: "I'm the owner of We Are Titans, my consultancy" your HN profile doesn't say this, it should.
righyeah 14y ago
You've nailed it with your first paragraph. That is the scheme. It's old. It still works. The web, like TV, is absolutely perfect for this scheme. The audience that includes people who would pay for this sort of advice is the one that watches TV at odd hours, and they are now increasingly surfing the web. It is the rough equivalent of the infommercial. While it may be theoretically possible, no one is going to make five figures per month except the person selling advice on how to make five figures per month. I don't know how these sellers sleep at night. Certainly they can do well. But they are _deliberately_ preying on the weak. If that's the type of "business" you want to run, go for it. But it has always been pure sleaze and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  But it has always been pure sleaze and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. I disagree. It's like condemning all 'learning to program' products because of the terrible 'Learn Java in 3 hours for idiots' books. Sales, marketing, running startups, etc. are teachable skills. Learning those skills helps enormously. Figuring out what's a good source of learning is, like in any other field, a job of research and reference chasing. I wish some of these things had been around ten years ago so I didn't have to learn stuff the hard way ;-)
  - righyeah 14y ago
    "It's like condemning all..." No, it is not like that. I'm not sure why you would see it that way. It is condemning a very specific practice. This practice is much like multi-level marketing. You might think of it as a sort of recursion. To use your example, it would be like selling a book on how to sell a book on how to learn to program. You might do very well with this sort of business but it does not require that anyone ever learns how to program. That is, the book does not need to be effective in accomplishing anything more than selling itself. As long as you understand this, it's fine. But somewhere down the line, someone may actually want to learn to program (not just sell ebooks). If this still isn't clear I am happy to give another example. Do some Google searches for "how to become wealthy without...", "work from home..." or some similarly popular too-good-to-be-true idea, or even just "internet marketing". You will find eventually examples of people, who have (surprise) done very well for themselves, by selling advice on how to sell advice on how to {become wealthy, work from home, etc.}, using the internet (email, web). These "advice on how to sell advice" schemes are perhaps the most lucrative forms of advice that can be sold via the internet. And also the most hollow. A best selling ebook might simply be a ebook on how to sell ebooks (on how to sell ebooks)! Keep recursing. Or just cut to the chase and search "multi-level marketing".
ahoyhere 14y ago
Nobody has presented it like you are presenting it… you built a strawman, which handily you are able to knock it down.

by amix 14y ago

bdunn 14y ago

Going to disagree. I think the level of likelihood for failing when you're shooting in the dark with your idea dú jour is SUBSTANTIALLY higher than when you mine audience pain points and build products around what people are asking for. That's all I'm doing. There's nothing that I'm doing that someone else can't.

rushabh 14y ago
You must also consider that most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess. Hats off to you guys for pulling it off and showing the way and inspiring other people. For most normal folk, it will take years of effort to reach this level in writing skills where they can build an audience on that strength. On a slightly different note, there are SAAS products like SalesForce, Quickbooks and the lot that are going to get the market by the brute force of their marketing budget. On the other extreme are people like you and patio11 and 37signals who take the effort to nurture an audience and generally pro-bootstrap. I think both strategies should work if executed well.
- ryanwaggoner 14y ago
  most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess Maybe most people don't, but many (maybe most) here on HN do. Just look at the comments here. And even if you don't have the writing skills on day 1, you can improve via advice, feedback, various courses and books, and practice.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  "You must also consider that most people do not have the kind of talent for writing that you and patio11 possess" I always find this kind of statement interesting. Where do you think we got our "talent"? Writing our butts off. It's true -- for people willing to put in the effort to be good, being good pays dividends. If you're not willing to put in the work, you don't get the dividends. But nobody is a "born writer." As bdunn said in my virtual earshot earlier today, "Compare my first blog and my latest." He provided a lesson for my class recently and I made him rewrite it 3 times before it was in acceptable shape for editing. I'm sure the process was kinda sucky for him on the one hand, on the other hand, he grew hugely as a teacher. Yep, being willing to exercise a skill pays off.
  - alexknowshtml 14y ago
    +1 to the writing as a practice. I look back at things I wrote a year ago - sometimes as much as 6 years ago - and wonder if they were really written by me. Writing every day and being willing to do it even if it's just for throwaway is the only way to develop the talent. You know, just like every other talent, ever.
larrys 14y ago
Brennan, serious question here. What have you done and how long have you been doing it for to come along and offer advice which you are now selling to others? Checking the registration dates of your three domains I find the following: planscope.io - April 4, 2012 businessoffreelancing.com - Sept 19, 2012 doubleyourfreelancingrate.com - Aug 15, 2012 wearetitans.net (2008) (where you work?) doesn't have an about page so I can find out nothing about your past history or your role there. This is your twitter: https://twitter.com/brennandunn https://twitter.com/brennandunn Your HN profile shows very little and so does a search. So tell me a little more about why your advice is so valuable.
- bdunn 14y ago
  Before planscope it was projectorpm.com, cease-and-desist copyright issue. The book and podcast are relatively new. I'm the owner of We Are Titans, my consultancy, and it's been around since 2008. Before that, I was just a freelancer. Also, http://hamptonroads.com/2011/11/small-tech-we-are-titans-offer-west-coast-values http://hamptonroads.com/2011/11/small-tech-we-are-titans-off... Lastly, I'm not trying to say I'm some uber consultant extraordinaire. But I know what's worked for me, and have had a serious amount of positive reception (success stories) from my book. I think that's what matters most.
  - larrys 14y ago
    If I challenge you it's for discussion. Also to point out that others might be thinking the things that I think (at least some people) but not raise the issue. And you could loose business from them. They might look at your planscope page and note that there aren't bios on anyone. That may be important to them. Now if you're a 1 person company there could be a strategic reason for doing that ("better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"). But if you have a "crew" why not do more than just include a picture? I've been observing business for a long long time. You will do great because you've got the proper degree of BS mixed together with things that you've learned in a short period of time and the ability to take advantage of people's generally trusting nature. Nothing wrong with that. When I started my first business (long time ago) I didn't have any employees and I had a big customer that wanted to visit (physical location - about 1500sf). So I brought in people to just stand around and look like I had employees. I got the contract and kept it for almost 5 or 6 years. I'm lucky that the person giving the contract wasn't me and wasn't able to see through it. Added: "I'm the owner of We Are Titans, my consultancy" your HN profile doesn't say this, it should.

righyeah 14y ago

You've nailed it with your first paragraph. That is the scheme. It's old. It still works. The web, like TV, is absolutely perfect for this scheme. The audience that includes people who would pay for this sort of advice is the one that watches TV at odd hours, and they are now increasingly surfing the web. It is the rough equivalent of the infommercial. While it may be theoretically possible, no one is going to make five figures per month except the person selling advice on how to make five figures per month. I don't know how these sellers sleep at night. Certainly they can do well. But they are _deliberately_ preying on the weak. If that's the type of "business" you want to run, go for it. But it has always been pure sleaze and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.

adrianhoward 14y ago
But it has always been pure sleaze and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. I disagree. It's like condemning all 'learning to program' products because of the terrible 'Learn Java in 3 hours for idiots' books. Sales, marketing, running startups, etc. are teachable skills. Learning those skills helps enormously. Figuring out what's a good source of learning is, like in any other field, a job of research and reference chasing. I wish some of these things had been around ten years ago so I didn't have to learn stuff the hard way ;-)
- righyeah 14y ago
  "It's like condemning all..." No, it is not like that. I'm not sure why you would see it that way. It is condemning a very specific practice. This practice is much like multi-level marketing. You might think of it as a sort of recursion. To use your example, it would be like selling a book on how to sell a book on how to learn to program. You might do very well with this sort of business but it does not require that anyone ever learns how to program. That is, the book does not need to be effective in accomplishing anything more than selling itself. As long as you understand this, it's fine. But somewhere down the line, someone may actually want to learn to program (not just sell ebooks). If this still isn't clear I am happy to give another example. Do some Google searches for "how to become wealthy without...", "work from home..." or some similarly popular too-good-to-be-true idea, or even just "internet marketing". You will find eventually examples of people, who have (surprise) done very well for themselves, by selling advice on how to sell advice on how to {become wealthy, work from home, etc.}, using the internet (email, web). These "advice on how to sell advice" schemes are perhaps the most lucrative forms of advice that can be sold via the internet. And also the most hollow. A best selling ebook might simply be a ebook on how to sell ebooks (on how to sell ebooks)! Keep recursing. Or just cut to the chase and search "multi-level marketing".

ahoyhere 14y ago

Nobody has presented it like you are presenting it… you built a strawman, which handily you are able to knock it down.