4 ms·

I don't get the "individual" vs "grouped" element thing at all. I guess you could interpret everything as a list, where null is actually empty list, but it seem

by ufmace 9mo ago

I don't get the "individual" vs "grouped" element thing at all. I guess you could interpret everything as a list, where null is actually empty list, but it seems like that would be a ton of boilerplate and architecture astronomy, not a universally better way of programming. I don't see any decent explanation of what "grouped-element" programming is and why it's universally better and more advanced. If that was really true, you should be able to point to a subset of code developed with this supposedly better mindset and demonstrate that it's actually better in terms of some objective measure like speed, memory efficiency, features, security vulnerabilities, etc. I don't see anything like that though. What are the odds that it really is a better way of programming versus a theory some guy made up? If you're familiar with the "no silver bullets" thing, a ton of things have been promoted by various people in the industry as a universal solution to general problems of software quality at various times, but vanishingly few of them have ever made a real difference. It seems to me that advances in memory management have been one of the few advancements promoted over the decades to make programming genuinely better and more reliable. Witness the dominance of garbage-collected languages for virtually everything that could possibly be done with them, and the advantages of moving things that can't use GC to languages with more solid non-GC memory management like Rust, which are becoming more clear. I think that's the best element we can lean on for software quality, not this grouped-element stuff.

kjksf 9mo ago
Here's an example. Imagine you're writing a parser that creates AST tree in C++. What 99% of people do is the "individual" style where every node is allocate with new and the memory comes from generic OS allocator. Then when you free the AST tree, you have traverse the tree and call delete on every node. There can be thousands of nodes. The crucial observation is: the lifetime of all nodes is the same. It's the lifetime of AST tree. The "grouped" thing is: you have an allocator dedicated to nodes of the AST tree. All nodes are allocated from this allocator. This has numerous speed and simplicity benefits. You need one free() call to free allocator vs. thousands of free() for each node. You can optimize your allocator for that use case compared to general OS allocator. By definition it's a bump pointer allocator (i.e. allocation is mostly addr += sizeof(obj)) which is much faster than what even fastest general allocators can do. You don't need to track per-allocation metadata that general allocator needs to be able to individually free each allocation. So you use less memory. There's no fragmentation because your allocator is contiguous space. The use of cache lines is most likely better because memory is not spread around. The nodes are used together so it's better if they are close in memory. Those are very significant benefits and yet, as the article notices, very few people are aware of this. Plus until very recently (before Rust became popular) the only serious low-level language was C/C++ and they don't help you programming in this style. Odin, zig, jai do. They make an allocator an exposed thing and provide language and standard library support for using different allocators.
- ufmace 9mo ago
  Okay, it makes sense that that's what it is. Still, it seems to me like that's more of an optimization technique that's applicable to certain specific scenarios rather than a mindset to view all software development as. I have actually heard of something like that, as arena allocation, though mostly as something to use in a GCed language to either avoid or reduce the impact of GC cycles, also for certain specific scenarios.
- CyMonk 9mo ago
  In this case the "grouped element mindset" means not only just using allocators but also avoiding RAII by flattening the traditional pointer- based OOP AST into arrays accessed by handles.

by ufmace 9mo ago

kjksf 9mo ago

Here's an example. Imagine you're writing a parser that creates AST tree in C++. What 99% of people do is the "individual" style where every node is allocate with new and the memory comes from generic OS allocator. Then when you free the AST tree, you have traverse the tree and call delete on every node. There can be thousands of nodes. The crucial observation is: the lifetime of all nodes is the same. It's the lifetime of AST tree. The "grouped" thing is: you have an allocator dedicated to nodes of the AST tree. All nodes are allocated from this allocator. This has numerous speed and simplicity benefits. You need one free() call to free allocator vs. thousands of free() for each node. You can optimize your allocator for that use case compared to general OS allocator. By definition it's a bump pointer allocator (i.e. allocation is mostly addr += sizeof(obj)) which is much faster than what even fastest general allocators can do. You don't need to track per-allocation metadata that general allocator needs to be able to individually free each allocation. So you use less memory. There's no fragmentation because your allocator is contiguous space. The use of cache lines is most likely better because memory is not spread around. The nodes are used together so it's better if they are close in memory. Those are very significant benefits and yet, as the article notices, very few people are aware of this. Plus until very recently (before Rust became popular) the only serious low-level language was C/C++ and they don't help you programming in this style. Odin, zig, jai do. They make an allocator an exposed thing and provide language and standard library support for using different allocators.

ufmace 9mo ago
Okay, it makes sense that that's what it is. Still, it seems to me like that's more of an optimization technique that's applicable to certain specific scenarios rather than a mindset to view all software development as. I have actually heard of something like that, as arena allocation, though mostly as something to use in a GCed language to either avoid or reduce the impact of GC cycles, also for certain specific scenarios.
CyMonk 9mo ago
In this case the "grouped element mindset" means not only just using allocators but also avoiding RAII by flattening the traditional pointer- based OOP AST into arrays accessed by handles.