4 ms·

I consider american PC towards women (or blacks etc) as a symptom. What makes you think it helps, other than overstating the problem (which in itself does not s

I consider american PC towards women (or blacks etc) as a symptom. What makes you think it helps, other than overstating the problem (which in itself does not solve it)?

saraid216 14y ago
Stating the problem is a step towards solving the problem. You can't solve something properly if you don't know it exists. How is that, by itself, not helping?
- zerostar07 14y ago
  Because there are better avenues (despite initial reactions, gender quotas in some EU countries managed to change deeply rooted corporate attitudes). And sometimes PC is misleading. I imagine if your workplace says "Our company welcomes women", it implies that it shouldn't be taken for granted, which would be illegal.
  - baxrob 14y ago
    Unfortunately, the term "quota" has been uber-toxic in US politics for the past twenty+ years. So ... what is known as PC[1] (which I wish could just be called "common decency"[2], or "non-douche-ism") ... becomes an indispensable (if thin) lever. [1] Interesting, to me, because I think of it as starting in the late 1980s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness [2] Credit to Vonnegut
rmc 14y ago
Political Correctness is great if you are a minority. It means you have similar rights to the powerful group. As a gay man, I know I can mention the gender of my spouse (male!) in a workplace environment without being worried about being fired (say). Straight people have always (more or less) been able to mention their spouse in the workplace without fear of repercussion. Now I can too! Political Correctness means I don't have to watch every word I say in the office! It's done wonders for my freedom of speech.
- zerostar07 14y ago
  But PC is only the first step! The more accepting a society is, the less PC is needed, because people embrace each other without a need for self-censorship and no one is offended.
  - rmc 14y ago
    Yes that's the end game
- tomp 14y ago
  Can I just ask you, how is that PC? Wouldn't PC be exactly the opposite, not mentioning the gender and only refering to him as "my spouse" or "they"? Personally, I'd say that your workplace has an accepting culture where you don't need to be politically correct...
  - rmc 14y ago
    The workplace has to be PC, which means that other employees (and managers etc.) know that jokes about "the gay one" are unacceptable. It means that the company will have to be PC, so if they invite employee's partners to a work outing, they'd have to invite my husband. If they get a company perk (like health insurance, discount gym membership), they have to make sure that company isn't going to say "well Family Membership is only between 1 man and 1 woman".
    - tomp 14y ago
      Aha. Nice, thanks for the explanation. Just one more question: Why would jokes about gays be unacceptable? It's perfectly ok to joke about straight people...
      - rmc 14y ago
        I cannot think of any jokes about straight people that are at all comparable to jokes about gay people. Do people joke about straight people's health or sexual activities on the basis of their sexual orientation? Do people say or joke that heterosexual relationships not being real realtionships (i.e. Mitt "I didn't know you people had families" Romney)? Do people joke/say that heterosexual people shouldn't be allowed near children? No, these jokes don't exist. If you can find some, please provide links. There are several definitions of sexual based discrimination, one is essentially "making references to someone's sexuality and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means homosexuals can be discriminatory or joke about straight people. There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among sexualities (specifically to maintain advantages that heterosexuals have). Right now, if modern USA/Western life was a video game, "straight" would be an easier difficulty level than "gay". There are statistically less problems for the "straight" group. Sexual discrimination talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/gay/straight/g and make it just as racist.

I consider american PC towards women (or blacks etc) as a symptom. What makes you think it helps, other than overstating the problem (which in itself does not solve it)?

saraid216 14y ago

Stating the problem is a step towards solving the problem. You can't solve something properly if you don't know it exists. How is that, by itself, not helping?

zerostar07 14y ago
Because there are better avenues (despite initial reactions, gender quotas in some EU countries managed to change deeply rooted corporate attitudes). And sometimes PC is misleading. I imagine if your workplace says "Our company welcomes women", it implies that it shouldn't be taken for granted, which would be illegal.
- baxrob 14y ago
  Unfortunately, the term "quota" has been uber-toxic in US politics for the past twenty+ years. So ... what is known as PC[1] (which I wish could just be called "common decency"[2], or "non-douche-ism") ... becomes an indispensable (if thin) lever. [1] Interesting, to me, because I think of it as starting in the late 1980s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness [2] Credit to Vonnegut

rmc 14y ago

Political Correctness is great if you are a minority. It means you have similar rights to the powerful group. As a gay man, I know I can mention the gender of my spouse (male!) in a workplace environment without being worried about being fired (say). Straight people have always (more or less) been able to mention their spouse in the workplace without fear of repercussion. Now I can too! Political Correctness means I don't have to watch every word I say in the office! It's done wonders for my freedom of speech.

zerostar07 14y ago
But PC is only the first step! The more accepting a society is, the less PC is needed, because people embrace each other without a need for self-censorship and no one is offended.
- rmc 14y ago
  Yes that's the end game
tomp 14y ago
Can I just ask you, how is that PC? Wouldn't PC be exactly the opposite, not mentioning the gender and only refering to him as "my spouse" or "they"? Personally, I'd say that your workplace has an accepting culture where you don't need to be politically correct...
- rmc 14y ago
  The workplace has to be PC, which means that other employees (and managers etc.) know that jokes about "the gay one" are unacceptable. It means that the company will have to be PC, so if they invite employee's partners to a work outing, they'd have to invite my husband. If they get a company perk (like health insurance, discount gym membership), they have to make sure that company isn't going to say "well Family Membership is only between 1 man and 1 woman".
  - tomp 14y ago
    Aha. Nice, thanks for the explanation. Just one more question: Why would jokes about gays be unacceptable? It's perfectly ok to joke about straight people...
    - rmc 14y ago
      I cannot think of any jokes about straight people that are at all comparable to jokes about gay people. Do people joke about straight people's health or sexual activities on the basis of their sexual orientation? Do people say or joke that heterosexual relationships not being real realtionships (i.e. Mitt "I didn't know you people had families" Romney)? Do people joke/say that heterosexual people shouldn't be allowed near children? No, these jokes don't exist. If you can find some, please provide links. There are several definitions of sexual based discrimination, one is essentially "making references to someone's sexuality and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means homosexuals can be discriminatory or joke about straight people. There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among sexualities (specifically to maintain advantages that heterosexuals have). Right now, if modern USA/Western life was a video game, "straight" would be an easier difficulty level than "gay". There are statistically less problems for the "straight" group. Sexual discrimination talk is talk that re-enforced that imbalance. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/gay/straight/g and make it just as racist.