4 ms·

Mini PCs seems to be the perfect vector, since the only serious manufacturers are Chinese brands. International brands only seem to dabble in this sector.

by dworks 9mo ago

walterbell 9mo ago
If (SO)DIMM memory prices rise to the stratosphere while integrated memory in Chinese mini PCs remain relatively affordable, from 16GB Intel N150 to 128GB AMD Strix Halo for Edge AI, there will be industry-altering consequences that persist long after DRAM pseudo-shortages end. Oligopolists can relearn old lessons, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma New companies that serve low-value customers with poorly developed technology can improve that technology incrementally until it is good enough to quickly take market share from established business.
- dworks 9mo ago
  Indeed. I am waiting to buy a Strix Halo on Taobao when supply has been replenished. I asked the manufacturer if price would remain the same after restocking, they said they weren't sure. They re-stock in the middle of January, so it will be interesting to see what the price ends up being. I wonder if there is any advantage of having integrated memory in this regard?
  - walterbell 9mo ago
    > any advantage of having integrated memory Power efficiency. Strix Halo also offers unified CPU/GPU memory with 256 GB/s memory bandwidth, which brings it closer to Apple Silicon performance for local LLMs, https://chipsandcheese.com/p/strix-halos-memory-subsystem-tackling https://chipsandcheese.com/p/strix-halos-memory-subsystem-ta... Another opportunity is low-latency storage with millions of IOPS. Nvidia is rebooting Intel's cancelled (see eBay) Optane for "AI Storage". Future Mini PCs and LLM accelerators for Narrow/Edge AI industrial use could benefit from high-IOPS storage, https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/nvidia-and-kioxia-target-100-million-iops-ssd-in-2027-33-times-more-than-existing-drives-for-exclusive-use-in-ai-servers https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/nvidia-and-kioxia...
toast0 9mo ago
I know there's more variety and typically lower prices (and sketchier windows licenses) from the Chinese brands, but last I looked, there's lots of options if you want an established brand. You can even get them from the likes of HP, Dell, Lenovo (still chinese, but), etc.
- walterbell 9mo ago
  Is there an Intel N150 or Ryzen mini PC (NUC form factor) made by HP, Dell or Lenovo?
  - toast0 9mo ago
    I think these have pretty high prices (as I acknowledged in my first message), but they exist. And I see similar things all over the place in retail and medical settings. Here's a recent AMD processor one from Lenovo https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/desktops/thinkcentre/m-series-tiny/lenovo-thinkcentre-m75q-gen-5-tiny-amd/len102c0051 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/desktops/thinkcentre/m-series... Here'a a Dell with Intel. I can't decipher Intel's model numbers, but it's DDR5 so it can't be that old. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-pro-qcm1250-micro/bts001d_qcm1250_usx https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-pro-qcm1250...
    - walterbell 9mo ago
      1 litre micro PCs are about 4X (35W+) TDP and price of Intel N150 with 6W TDP. They do offer more performance and features (e.g. security) than N150, but exist in a separate and stable (15+ year) category of business desktop. Mini-PCs have a range of experimental form factors, including mini-desktop, NAS, router, tablet, SBCs, industrial with GPIO, thanks to competition between Chinese and Korean (e.g. ODROID) OEMs. HP has a $220 4GB Windows laptop and $400+ 8GB Chromebook based on Intel N150.

Mini PCs seems to be the perfect vector, since the only serious manufacturers are Chinese brands. International brands only seem to dabble in this sector.

by dworks 9mo ago

Mini PCs seems to be the perfect vector, since the only serious manufacturers are Chinese brands. International brands only seem to dabble in this sector.

walterbell 9mo ago

If (SO)DIMM memory prices rise to the stratosphere while integrated memory in Chinese mini PCs remain relatively affordable, from 16GB Intel N150 to 128GB AMD Strix Halo for Edge AI, there will be industry-altering consequences that persist long after DRAM pseudo-shortages end. Oligopolists can relearn old lessons, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma New companies that serve low-value customers with poorly developed technology can improve that technology incrementally until it is good enough to quickly take market share from established business.

dworks 9mo ago
Indeed. I am waiting to buy a Strix Halo on Taobao when supply has been replenished. I asked the manufacturer if price would remain the same after restocking, they said they weren't sure. They re-stock in the middle of January, so it will be interesting to see what the price ends up being. I wonder if there is any advantage of having integrated memory in this regard?
- walterbell 9mo ago
  > any advantage of having integrated memory Power efficiency. Strix Halo also offers unified CPU/GPU memory with 256 GB/s memory bandwidth, which brings it closer to Apple Silicon performance for local LLMs, https://chipsandcheese.com/p/strix-halos-memory-subsystem-tackling https://chipsandcheese.com/p/strix-halos-memory-subsystem-ta... Another opportunity is low-latency storage with millions of IOPS. Nvidia is rebooting Intel's cancelled (see eBay) Optane for "AI Storage". Future Mini PCs and LLM accelerators for Narrow/Edge AI industrial use could benefit from high-IOPS storage, https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/nvidia-and-kioxia-target-100-million-iops-ssd-in-2027-33-times-more-than-existing-drives-for-exclusive-use-in-ai-servers https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/nvidia-and-kioxia...

toast0 9mo ago

I know there's more variety and typically lower prices (and sketchier windows licenses) from the Chinese brands, but last I looked, there's lots of options if you want an established brand. You can even get them from the likes of HP, Dell, Lenovo (still chinese, but), etc.

walterbell 9mo ago
Is there an Intel N150 or Ryzen mini PC (NUC form factor) made by HP, Dell or Lenovo?
- toast0 9mo ago
  I think these have pretty high prices (as I acknowledged in my first message), but they exist. And I see similar things all over the place in retail and medical settings. Here's a recent AMD processor one from Lenovo https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/desktops/thinkcentre/m-series-tiny/lenovo-thinkcentre-m75q-gen-5-tiny-amd/len102c0051 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/desktops/thinkcentre/m-series... Here'a a Dell with Intel. I can't decipher Intel's model numbers, but it's DDR5 so it can't be that old. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-pro-qcm1250-micro/bts001d_qcm1250_usx https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-pro-qcm1250...
  - walterbell 9mo ago
    1 litre micro PCs are about 4X (35W+) TDP and price of Intel N150 with 6W TDP. They do offer more performance and features (e.g. security) than N150, but exist in a separate and stable (15+ year) category of business desktop. Mini-PCs have a range of experimental form factors, including mini-desktop, NAS, router, tablet, SBCs, industrial with GPIO, thanks to competition between Chinese and Korean (e.g. ODROID) OEMs. HP has a $220 4GB Windows laptop and $400+ 8GB Chromebook based on Intel N150.