6 ms·

> Try to do better Pretty sure this line never convinced anyone of anything. We all want to do "better" but have different definitions of what that constitutes

by apparent 10mo ago

> Try to do better Pretty sure this line never convinced anyone of anything. We all want to do "better" but have different definitions of what that constitutes. > If you don’t think your kids are going to have sex when they’re older, or think you can control it, you are lying to yourself. I don't think anyone thinks this. Some people do hope and expect their children not to have sex outside of a monogamous marriage. If you give your kid a vaccine that is primarily meant for people who do not do this, you are letting your kid know that you don't really have faith in them. That sends a strong message that some people do not want to send. As GP said, you're free to raise your kids different, and if you don't place value on reserving sex for marriage, it would make sense that you would do differently.

toomuchtodo 10mo ago
Well, hope and faith are not effective strategies. Good luck to those who operate from this perspective, they will face disappointment, which is theirs to own. Monogamous marriage is a shrinking minority of potential outcomes [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6], and ~40% of first marriages end in divorce [7] (rates are higher for second and third marriages). The kids of these people get a chance to do better when they become adults, and that's all we can hope for: that they make better choices than their parents. Better luck next generation I suppose. [1] How has marriage in the US changed over time? - https://usafacts.org/articles/state-relationships-marriages-and-living-alone-us/ https://usafacts.org/articles/state-relationships-marriages-... - February 11th, 2025 ("In 2024, US adults were less likely to be married than at almost any point since the Census Bureau began tracking marital status in 1940. The percentage of households with a married couple peaked 75 years ago: in 1949, it was 78.8%. That percentage has been below 50.0% since 2010, when the rate was 49.7%. In other words, less than half of American households have included a married couple for over a decade.") [2] Charted: How American Households Have Changed Over Time (1960-2023) - https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-american-households-have-changed-over-time/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-american-households-hav... - November 6th, 2024 ("More Americans today are delaying or forgoing marriage altogether, with just 20% of women and 23% of men aged 25 being married—the lowest on record. Projections indicate that by 2050, one-third of Americans aged 45 may remain unmarried.") [3] Morgan Stanley: Rise of the SHEconomy - https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-eco... - September 23rd, 2019 ("Based on Census Bureau historical data and Morgan Stanley forecasts, 45% of prime working age women (ages 25-44) will be single by 2030—the largest share in history—up from 41% in 2018.") [4] Pew Research: Share of U.S. adults living without a romantic partner has ticked down in recent years - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/08/share-of-us-adults-living-without-a-romantic-partner-has-ticked-down-in-recent-years/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/08/share-of-... - January 8th, 2025 [5] Pew Research: A record-high share of 40-year-olds in the U.S. have never been married - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/28/a-record-high-share-of-40-year-olds-in-the-us-have-never-been-married/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/28/a-record-... - June 28th, 2023 [6] Institute for Family Studies: 1-in-3: A Record Share of Young Adults Will Never Marry - https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-3-a-record-share-of-young-adults-will-never-marry https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-3-a-record-share-of-young-ad... - February 26th, 2024 [7] Pew Research: 8 facts about divorce in the United States - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/10/16/8-facts-about-divorce-in-the-united-states/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/10/16/8-facts-a... - October 16th, 2025
- apparent 10mo ago
  > Well, hope and faith are not effective strategies. Good luck to those who operate from this perspective, they will face disappointment, which is theirs to own. Hm, worked great for many people I know. I can imagine it would depend on a number of factors. But looking at your links, they don't seem especially relevant to the question of whether more people are having sex before marriage than before. They don't even mention the word "sex" in fact. And of course, the relevant question isn't whether people in general are having sex before marriage less, it's whether people raised in families where abstention is valued are upholding that value in their lives. But congrats on sharing lots of links, which makes it look like evidence is on your side! As to whether "hope and faith are not effective strategies", it probably makes sense to listen to the experience of people who rely on such hope and faith in their lives, and who have many friends/family who do. People who express outward disdain for such things are probably not the best source of reliable info on the matter.
  - toomuchtodo 10mo ago
    I understand that religiosity (faith and hope) is negatively correlated to intelligence, so I also understand faith driven mental models are an uphill climb to better health outcomes at scale. "It is what it is." As I mentioned, perhaps we'll have better luck next generation, when systems have improved in this regard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289617301848 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602... https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/documents/TheRelationshipofReligiosityAtheismBeliefandIntelligenceKristyLungo.pdf https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/document... https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.12425 https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.12425 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/ (edit: facts and data are not unkind, they just are, and I feel like I have been very polite in my delivery of all facts and data presented; if you are unhappy about the facts and data presented, that is an internal issue to reconcile)
    - 10mo ago
LorenPechtel 10mo ago
"Sending a message" is generally a cover term for evil. And there is no issue of having faith in them--you are trying to make a decision you have no right to make. You're a parent, not a slavemaster. The real world data is that the "good" girls are more likely to get pregnant, more likely to get STDs. And more likely to end up in bad marriages. And lets add another data point. I used to have a bunch of coworkers from a very conservative background. An unmarried person would not be able to buy a condom in town type conservative. Over the course of many years I became aware of many marriages--and every single marriage was either arranged or due to pregnancy. Every single one. Remember, one of the definitions of insanity is keeping trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome.
- electriclove 10mo ago
  The decision to vaccinate absolutely belongs with the parent. The child does not know enough to make this decision when they are 9 years old.
  - toomuchtodo 10mo ago
    Neither does a parent, based on all available evidence, and multiple jurisdictions make vaccination compulsory without exception. Parents aren’t special, and they are failing in this regard by believing they should have a right to say no, simply for being a parent. Anyone, broadly speaking, can have children. That does not make them good or qualified parents unfortunately. It just makes them temporary guardians (until their children are adults) with an opinion. ~54% of Americans read below a sixth grade reading level, for example. We would trust your average American’s judgement on vaccination need or schedule, especially for their children, why?
    - apparent 10mo ago
      > based on all available evidence, and multiple jurisdictions make vaccination compulsory without exception Can you share which jurisdictions mandate the HPV vaccine and have no exceptions? I am aware of only a few jurisdictions where it is required, and all such jurisdictions have exceptions. They also only require it for kids in schools, so any kid who is homeschooled is not subject to the mandate in the first place. More importantly, the vast, vast majority of jurisdictions have no mandate whatsoever, so any parent can also choose to move to one of those, in addition to the homeschool option.

toomuchtodo 10mo ago

Well, hope and faith are not effective strategies. Good luck to those who operate from this perspective, they will face disappointment, which is theirs to own. Monogamous marriage is a shrinking minority of potential outcomes [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6], and ~40% of first marriages end in divorce [7] (rates are higher for second and third marriages). The kids of these people get a chance to do better when they become adults, and that's all we can hope for: that they make better choices than their parents. Better luck next generation I suppose. [1] How has marriage in the US changed over time? - https://usafacts.org/articles/state-relationships-marriages-and-living-alone-us/ https://usafacts.org/articles/state-relationships-marriages-... - February 11th, 2025 ("In 2024, US adults were less likely to be married than at almost any point since the Census Bureau began tracking marital status in 1940. The percentage of households with a married couple peaked 75 years ago: in 1949, it was 78.8%. That percentage has been below 50.0% since 2010, when the rate was 49.7%. In other words, less than half of American households have included a married couple for over a decade.") [2] Charted: How American Households Have Changed Over Time (1960-2023) - https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-american-households-have-changed-over-time/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-american-households-hav... - November 6th, 2024 ("More Americans today are delaying or forgoing marriage altogether, with just 20% of women and 23% of men aged 25 being married—the lowest on record. Projections indicate that by 2050, one-third of Americans aged 45 may remain unmarried.") [3] Morgan Stanley: Rise of the SHEconomy - https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-eco... - September 23rd, 2019 ("Based on Census Bureau historical data and Morgan Stanley forecasts, 45% of prime working age women (ages 25-44) will be single by 2030—the largest share in history—up from 41% in 2018.") [4] Pew Research: Share of U.S. adults living without a romantic partner has ticked down in recent years - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/08/share-of-us-adults-living-without-a-romantic-partner-has-ticked-down-in-recent-years/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/08/share-of-... - January 8th, 2025 [5] Pew Research: A record-high share of 40-year-olds in the U.S. have never been married - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/28/a-record-high-share-of-40-year-olds-in-the-us-have-never-been-married/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/28/a-record-... - June 28th, 2023 [6] Institute for Family Studies: 1-in-3: A Record Share of Young Adults Will Never Marry - https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-3-a-record-share-of-young-adults-will-never-marry https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-3-a-record-share-of-young-ad... - February 26th, 2024 [7] Pew Research: 8 facts about divorce in the United States - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/10/16/8-facts-about-divorce-in-the-united-states/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/10/16/8-facts-a... - October 16th, 2025

apparent 10mo ago
> Well, hope and faith are not effective strategies. Good luck to those who operate from this perspective, they will face disappointment, which is theirs to own. Hm, worked great for many people I know. I can imagine it would depend on a number of factors. But looking at your links, they don't seem especially relevant to the question of whether more people are having sex before marriage than before. They don't even mention the word "sex" in fact. And of course, the relevant question isn't whether people in general are having sex before marriage less, it's whether people raised in families where abstention is valued are upholding that value in their lives. But congrats on sharing lots of links, which makes it look like evidence is on your side! As to whether "hope and faith are not effective strategies", it probably makes sense to listen to the experience of people who rely on such hope and faith in their lives, and who have many friends/family who do. People who express outward disdain for such things are probably not the best source of reliable info on the matter.
- toomuchtodo 10mo ago
  I understand that religiosity (faith and hope) is negatively correlated to intelligence, so I also understand faith driven mental models are an uphill climb to better health outcomes at scale. "It is what it is." As I mentioned, perhaps we'll have better luck next generation, when systems have improved in this regard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289617301848 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602... https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/documents/TheRelationshipofReligiosityAtheismBeliefandIntelligenceKristyLungo.pdf https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/document... https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.12425 https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.12425 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/ (edit: facts and data are not unkind, they just are, and I feel like I have been very polite in my delivery of all facts and data presented; if you are unhappy about the facts and data presented, that is an internal issue to reconcile)
  - 10mo ago

LorenPechtel 10mo ago

"Sending a message" is generally a cover term for evil. And there is no issue of having faith in them--you are trying to make a decision you have no right to make. You're a parent, not a slavemaster. The real world data is that the "good" girls are more likely to get pregnant, more likely to get STDs. And more likely to end up in bad marriages. And lets add another data point. I used to have a bunch of coworkers from a very conservative background. An unmarried person would not be able to buy a condom in town type conservative. Over the course of many years I became aware of many marriages--and every single marriage was either arranged or due to pregnancy. Every single one. Remember, one of the definitions of insanity is keeping trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

electriclove 10mo ago
The decision to vaccinate absolutely belongs with the parent. The child does not know enough to make this decision when they are 9 years old.
- toomuchtodo 10mo ago
  Neither does a parent, based on all available evidence, and multiple jurisdictions make vaccination compulsory without exception. Parents aren’t special, and they are failing in this regard by believing they should have a right to say no, simply for being a parent. Anyone, broadly speaking, can have children. That does not make them good or qualified parents unfortunately. It just makes them temporary guardians (until their children are adults) with an opinion. ~54% of Americans read below a sixth grade reading level, for example. We would trust your average American’s judgement on vaccination need or schedule, especially for their children, why?
  - apparent 10mo ago
    > based on all available evidence, and multiple jurisdictions make vaccination compulsory without exception Can you share which jurisdictions mandate the HPV vaccine and have no exceptions? I am aware of only a few jurisdictions where it is required, and all such jurisdictions have exceptions. They also only require it for kids in schools, so any kid who is homeschooled is not subject to the mandate in the first place. More importantly, the vast, vast majority of jurisdictions have no mandate whatsoever, so any parent can also choose to move to one of those, in addition to the homeschool option.