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https://www.semiconsam.com/p/why-did-the-memory-chicken-game-keep https://www.semiconsam.com/p/why-did-the-memory-chicken-game... | https://s-space.snu.ac.kr/bi

https://www.semiconsam.com/p/why-did-the-memory-chicken-game-keep https://www.semiconsam.com/p/why-did-the-memory-chicken-game... | https://s-space.snu.ac.kr/bitstream/10371/95351/1/01%20Jeho%20Lee.pdf https://s-space.snu.ac.kr/bitstream/10371/95351/1/01%20Jeho%... Chinese memory makers are the product of massive state backing, with tens of billions of dollars in subsidies and the full weight of the Chinese government behind them. Could Samsung win a power struggle against the Chinese government? .. The market that [Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron] created by surviving is completely different from the past. When there were ten players, even if I cut output, someone else could simply increase theirs. But now that only three remain, everyone knows all too well that if anyone recklessly expands supply, everyone goes down together.. the market paradigm has shifted from a “market share (M/S) war” to “profit maximization.” https://x.com/semianalysis_/status/2005458750296256654 https://x.com/semianalysis_/status/2005458750296256654 The key to (CXMT) achieving 10nm-class DRAM mass production at a speed that seemingly defies physics lies in its complete acquisition of Samsung’s PRP process roadmap—a project that took Samsung five years and 1.6 trillion KRW to develop. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/dram/samsung-engineer-accused-of-leaking-10nm-dram-process-data-to-chinas-cxmt https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/dram/samsung-engi... South Korean prosecutors indicted multiple individuals in a case alleging that a former Samsung engineer leaked advanced DRAM manufacturing process data to [CXMT] .. shedding light on how leaked trade secrets may have accelerated China’s push into 10nm-class memory.. engineers in question allegedly took note of detailed critical manufacturing steps in handwritten notes taken over five years.. handwritten notes remain difficult to track or audit. Investigators say the accused engineer exploited this gap by memorizing and transcribing process flows, which is virtually impossible to police effectively.

tempest_ 10mo ago
Basically the same thing that happened to Nortel.
- walterbell 10mo ago
  Five years of memorized handwritten notes is a bit more old school corporate/state espionage than remote network breach, https://nationalpost.com/news/exclusive-did-huawei-bring-down-nortel-corporate-espionage-theft-and-the-parallel-rise-and-fall-of-two-telecom-giants https://nationalpost.com/news/exclusive-did-huawei-bring-dow... Security advisor Brian Shields discovered that not one, but seven Nortel executives, including CEO Frank Dunn, had been hacked, and that the hackers were vacuuming an alarming volume of sensitive material out of its databases. By the end of his investigation, Shields says he was able to track the theft of over 1,400 documents.. during a six-month period when bosses allowed him to monitor the stealing. He found evidence the break-in of Nortel’s internal computer network had started no later than 2000, and probably began in the 1990s. He says it lasted past 2009..
- throw3836364 10mo ago
  Reminds me of when those European monks smuggled silkworms out of China.
  - tooltalk 10mo ago
    too bad that there is nothing to steal from modern China.
mittensc 10mo ago
everything leaks eventually. this wouldn't be such a problem if prices weren't so insane. Samsung would still have volume/know how/efficienciez.
Johanx64 10mo ago
>Could Samsung win a power struggle against the Chinese government? Translation: Could Korean government win a power struggle against Chinese government
coliveira 10mo ago
Samsung is 100% backed by the state as well.
- throwaway85825 10mo ago
  CXMT is Chinese backed whereas Korea is Samsung backed.
  - tooltalk 10mo ago
    I see what you did there. LOL Samsung closed the last Chinese smartphone factory in 2019 and moved South to Vietnam. In 2020, Samsung's Vietnam production accounted for about 25+% of the country's GDP and export.
    - throwaway85825 10mo ago
      They don't call it the republic of Samsung for nothing. Japanese companies are also nearshoring to vietnam.
- tooltalk 10mo ago
  This was mostly in the 80's during the cold war. IMO, and it's not even really clear how Samsung's DRAM business really benefited from the state backing. The South Korea gov't first major initiative "Semiconductor Industry Promotion Plan" started only after Samsung'd developed their first 64K DRAM in 1983. It really helped other local industry competitors such as LG and Hyundai catch up, but Samsung was already on a roll -- by the early 90's, the company became the first to develop 256Mb DRAM. Not clear whether they really needed hand-holding from the gov't.
  - coliveira 10mo ago
    As mentioned in the sibling comment, Samsung practically owns S Korea. It's a fools errand to separate Samsung from the government.
    - 10mo ago
dmix 10mo ago
IP is basically DOA if you’re competing with China
xzjis 10mo ago
As a free-software advocate, I believe competition should be based on investment in industrial machinery and labour, not on secretly guarded know-how. If Samsung, Micron, and SK-Electronics weren't an oligopoly trying to squeeze maximum profit out of consumers and instead offered good prices, China wouldn't be able to—and would have no interest in—subsidizing private companies to get them on the same level. It's only the greed of these three companies in their oligopoly that has put them in such a fragile position, where the slightest competition could be fatal to them.

tempest_ 10mo ago

Basically the same thing that happened to Nortel.

walterbell 10mo ago
Five years of memorized handwritten notes is a bit more old school corporate/state espionage than remote network breach, https://nationalpost.com/news/exclusive-did-huawei-bring-down-nortel-corporate-espionage-theft-and-the-parallel-rise-and-fall-of-two-telecom-giants https://nationalpost.com/news/exclusive-did-huawei-bring-dow... Security advisor Brian Shields discovered that not one, but seven Nortel executives, including CEO Frank Dunn, had been hacked, and that the hackers were vacuuming an alarming volume of sensitive material out of its databases. By the end of his investigation, Shields says he was able to track the theft of over 1,400 documents.. during a six-month period when bosses allowed him to monitor the stealing. He found evidence the break-in of Nortel’s internal computer network had started no later than 2000, and probably began in the 1990s. He says it lasted past 2009..
throw3836364 10mo ago
Reminds me of when those European monks smuggled silkworms out of China.
- tooltalk 10mo ago
  too bad that there is nothing to steal from modern China.

mittensc 10mo ago

everything leaks eventually. this wouldn't be such a problem if prices weren't so insane. Samsung would still have volume/know how/efficienciez.

Johanx64 10mo ago

>Could Samsung win a power struggle against the Chinese government? Translation: Could Korean government win a power struggle against Chinese government

coliveira 10mo ago

Samsung is 100% backed by the state as well.

throwaway85825 10mo ago
CXMT is Chinese backed whereas Korea is Samsung backed.
- tooltalk 10mo ago
  I see what you did there. LOL Samsung closed the last Chinese smartphone factory in 2019 and moved South to Vietnam. In 2020, Samsung's Vietnam production accounted for about 25+% of the country's GDP and export.
  - throwaway85825 10mo ago
    They don't call it the republic of Samsung for nothing. Japanese companies are also nearshoring to vietnam.
tooltalk 10mo ago
This was mostly in the 80's during the cold war. IMO, and it's not even really clear how Samsung's DRAM business really benefited from the state backing. The South Korea gov't first major initiative "Semiconductor Industry Promotion Plan" started only after Samsung'd developed their first 64K DRAM in 1983. It really helped other local industry competitors such as LG and Hyundai catch up, but Samsung was already on a roll -- by the early 90's, the company became the first to develop 256Mb DRAM. Not clear whether they really needed hand-holding from the gov't.
- coliveira 10mo ago
  As mentioned in the sibling comment, Samsung practically owns S Korea. It's a fools errand to separate Samsung from the government.
  - 10mo ago

dmix 10mo ago

IP is basically DOA if you’re competing with China

xzjis 10mo ago

As a free-software advocate, I believe competition should be based on investment in industrial machinery and labour, not on secretly guarded know-how. If Samsung, Micron, and SK-Electronics weren't an oligopoly trying to squeeze maximum profit out of consumers and instead offered good prices, China wouldn't be able to—and would have no interest in—subsidizing private companies to get them on the same level. It's only the greed of these three companies in their oligopoly that has put them in such a fragile position, where the slightest competition could be fatal to them.