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Not cutting off, but it's enough that the US increases oil supply which lowers the prices to significantly hurt Russia and Iran. And then you have China which i

Not cutting off, but it's enough that the US increases oil supply which lowers the prices to significantly hurt Russia and Iran. And then you have China which is the main consumer of Venezuelan oil so you get another point of leverage. Also probably helps to ensure the petro dollar is here to stay for longer. Obviously this is a very shallow analysis, and there's definitely significant risks, but I do think it's obvious that it has large potential upsides.

estearum 9mo ago
Well... POTUS just said that the plan is to sell large amounts of Venezuelan oil to China and Russia. So again: conceivably sure, but the details matter. The details we have right now do not look very promising IMO.
jacquesm 9mo ago
It's not shallow, it is gullible. Of course Trump has an angle otherwise he wouldn't have done this. We can speculate about what the angle is but there is absolutely no way that he did this for the good of the Venezuelan population. Edit: So, that took only 8 minutes, the other shoe just dropped, it was about the oil after all. Where do I collect my check?
- mupuff1234 9mo ago
  Oh yeah, I'm certain the intent behind this wasn't for the sake of the Venezuelan population, but that in itself doesn't mean it won't result in a better outcome for the population (but also not saying that it will)
  - stickfigure 9mo ago
    The thing I occasionally say about Trump is: "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." We ("the opposition") can't get into the frame where we say that everything Trump does is wrong. It's not frequent, but sometimes - yes even for totally wrong reasons - he does things which are probably right. Our identity needs to be more than just "the opposite of what Trump does", otherwise the Trumpists will frame all debates around issues that make us look crazy, rather than the issues that demonstrate blatant grift and criminality. If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing. Let's go back to talking about the clear and obviously terrible things Trump does. Don't let them change the subject.
    - estearum 9mo ago
      > If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing. Agree with your overall sentiment but this is just a ridiculous position to hold at this point. History is absolutely full of horrible people being toppled just for more horrible people to take their place. There is literally no evidence whatsoever of a plan for post-Maduro Venezuela. At all! They're either acting completely clueless for the cameras for some unknown reason, or this is very likely going to go really badly.
      - stickfigure 9mo ago
        Venezuela has already been going really badly, by nearly any quantitative metric of "how going". This is a country that - a couple decades ago - was a rare success story of democracy and prosperity in Latin America. I think the Venezuelans will work it out, despite Trump's ineptitude.
        estearum 9mo ago
        I see this sentiment around here a lot and I just have to laugh. Things going badly does not mean — even at all — that things cannot go much much worse. Libya was bad and got worse Syria was bad and got worse Afghanistan was bad and got worse Sudan was bad and got worse In fact, nearly every really bad situation was already bad, and then it got worse.
        stickfigure 9mo ago
        I can appreciate that but taken to its conclusion it's a recipe for paralysis and complacency. It always could be worse, so let's just let sit here and let shit happen? Unlike all those places you mention, Venezuela has a democratic tradition which was only recently derailed. This isn't some middle eastern theocratic monarchy. It's "get back on track" not "find new tracks where none existed before".
        estearum 9mo ago
        No, shit can always get worse so act carefully and with a plan. I and many others are asking for evidence of such a plan. The US administration has denied the existence of such a plan. Maybe those factors you mention will turn out to be relevant or even determinative, and maybe not. I suspect in absence of an actual plan, the mere tradition of democracy will not suffice.
Loudergood 9mo ago
In the short term this will likely decrease oil supply and drive up oil revenue for Russia.
- mupuff1234 9mo ago
  Venezuela supplies less than 1% of the world's oil, basically meaningless.

estearum 9mo ago

Well... POTUS just said that the plan is to sell large amounts of Venezuelan oil to China and Russia. So again: conceivably sure, but the details matter. The details we have right now do not look very promising IMO.

jacquesm 9mo ago

It's not shallow, it is gullible. Of course Trump has an angle otherwise he wouldn't have done this. We can speculate about what the angle is but there is absolutely no way that he did this for the good of the Venezuelan population. Edit: So, that took only 8 minutes, the other shoe just dropped, it was about the oil after all. Where do I collect my check?

mupuff1234 9mo ago
Oh yeah, I'm certain the intent behind this wasn't for the sake of the Venezuelan population, but that in itself doesn't mean it won't result in a better outcome for the population (but also not saying that it will)
- stickfigure 9mo ago
  The thing I occasionally say about Trump is: "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." We ("the opposition") can't get into the frame where we say that everything Trump does is wrong. It's not frequent, but sometimes - yes even for totally wrong reasons - he does things which are probably right. Our identity needs to be more than just "the opposite of what Trump does", otherwise the Trumpists will frame all debates around issues that make us look crazy, rather than the issues that demonstrate blatant grift and criminality. If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing. Let's go back to talking about the clear and obviously terrible things Trump does. Don't let them change the subject.
  - estearum 9mo ago
    > If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing. Agree with your overall sentiment but this is just a ridiculous position to hold at this point. History is absolutely full of horrible people being toppled just for more horrible people to take their place. There is literally no evidence whatsoever of a plan for post-Maduro Venezuela. At all! They're either acting completely clueless for the cameras for some unknown reason, or this is very likely going to go really badly.
    - stickfigure 9mo ago
      Venezuela has already been going really badly, by nearly any quantitative metric of "how going". This is a country that - a couple decades ago - was a rare success story of democracy and prosperity in Latin America. I think the Venezuelans will work it out, despite Trump's ineptitude.
      - estearum 9mo ago
        I see this sentiment around here a lot and I just have to laugh. Things going badly does not mean — even at all — that things cannot go much much worse. Libya was bad and got worse Syria was bad and got worse Afghanistan was bad and got worse Sudan was bad and got worse In fact, nearly every really bad situation was already bad, and then it got worse.
        stickfigure 9mo ago
        I can appreciate that but taken to its conclusion it's a recipe for paralysis and complacency. It always could be worse, so let's just let sit here and let shit happen? Unlike all those places you mention, Venezuela has a democratic tradition which was only recently derailed. This isn't some middle eastern theocratic monarchy. It's "get back on track" not "find new tracks where none existed before".
        estearum 9mo ago
        No, shit can always get worse so act carefully and with a plan. I and many others are asking for evidence of such a plan. The US administration has denied the existence of such a plan. Maybe those factors you mention will turn out to be relevant or even determinative, and maybe not. I suspect in absence of an actual plan, the mere tradition of democracy will not suffice.

Loudergood 9mo ago

In the short term this will likely decrease oil supply and drive up oil revenue for Russia.

mupuff1234 9mo ago
Venezuela supplies less than 1% of the world's oil, basically meaningless.