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Nationalism as ideology gives a shared identity, that allows ideas like long term public infrastructure, multgenenrational plans, and efforts to advance the Cit

Nationalism as ideology gives a shared identity, that allows ideas like long term public infrastructure, multgenenrational plans, and efforts to advance the Citizens overall to take root. Why should I want affordable housing for citizens, unless being part of my nation is important? Why should I accept any plan that extends beyond my lifetime? More fundamentally, I believe that when a groups identity is sufficiently fragmented, it's no longer ethical to apply the powers of the state. Since my (and my groups) interests are no longer sufficiently represented. There is no unifying identity, or argument that can be made that allows me to believe a compromise leads to anything good. Religion is a sidetrack; god is dead.

donkeybeer 10mo ago
I don't feel nationalism. I want good public infra, more housing because it simply makes life better. For example, have you ever released anything FOSS? I haven't yet but it is my aspiration to, I don't care which country or person it helps. I will happily support liberal democratic elements whether they be Germans in Germany or blacks in America or any other group. And conversely, I would absolutely fucking hate any of my tax money supporting far right wing elements in my own country/race or otherwise. But I am not stupid enough to deny improvements in my country just to spite these retards.
- servo_sausage 10mo ago
  Sure, I use and contribute to some; and participate in international groups. The key part for me though is the voluntary nature. I can participate as much or as little as I like, and my motivation to participate can be entirely individualistic, and the whole thing still works (more or less). Taxation and policing is not voluntary however; and I frequently see the proceeds going to short term initiatives, that are promoted based on how much they impact some minority group specifically. Advancing one group in a democracy is not often even a neutral action; its entirely possible to use resources so poorly that it's harmful overall. (Both in economic terms, but also in more abstract things like public trust in policing, or tolerance of corruption)
  - donkeybeer 10mo ago
    And for me the slicing in dicing happens for non-racial axes, I don't like certain racial minorities getting some subsidies but I don't "feel it in my bones" so to speak whereas I absolutely hate in my very bones the fact that eg conservative voting provinces are getting services from my tax money. Ideally of course I'd prefer not subsidizing any racial groups. Again, the concept of a country or nation defined without race or ethnicity is much closer to what I believe in anyways, except I want it at an even large scale.
  - donkeybeer 10mo ago
    Eg I dislike mistreatment of a person of my race or any other race but its not due to racial kinship but distaste for mistreatment in general. I would say I am very low on race, you could say even deracinated and anti national overall in my worldview.
donkeybeer 10mo ago
Groups identity is fragmented precisely because of nationalism. White nationalism, black nationalism, original country nationalism of immigrants. If there hadn't been nationalism, you remove one of the major reasons for that fragmentation in the first place.
- servo_sausage 10mo ago
  You are trying to define the existence of multiple cultures inside a nation, as a reason why a unified national identity is an issue? You cannot remove the idea of a national identity without some way to prevent a unified group from forming in exclusion to the rest of the population, to advance their group primarily. And the word for that is nationalism.
  - donkeybeer 10mo ago
    If you are talking about national identity bereft of and independent from race or ethnicity then you are close to what I want and are maybe using the word nationalism differently from what I meant. Except I go one step above and believe in taking this to a supra national level. You clearly see benefits in dissolving ethnic/racial identification in service of a larger group viz a nation, I just believe in taking it a step further. It has nothing to do with the number of governments one wants or wanting a world government. I don't feel a need to be governed by Germany or France while at the same time I feel no problem in my money and my support going to them and in feeling kinship with them over common principles.
    - servo_sausage 10mo ago
      I think it's important to draw the distinction specifically between multiculturalism (the idea of allowing the nation to be just an economic zone containing multiple cultures), and nationalism (the idea that the citizens of a nation should have a shared culture and identity). And promotion of that shared identity is absolutely vital; it should be independent of race, but not ethnicity, since typically I understand ethnicity to include cultural identity. It's not so much about what we do voluntarily; Its about how we construct an argument that taxation and policing is ethical.

donkeybeer 10mo ago

I don't feel nationalism. I want good public infra, more housing because it simply makes life better. For example, have you ever released anything FOSS? I haven't yet but it is my aspiration to, I don't care which country or person it helps. I will happily support liberal democratic elements whether they be Germans in Germany or blacks in America or any other group. And conversely, I would absolutely fucking hate any of my tax money supporting far right wing elements in my own country/race or otherwise. But I am not stupid enough to deny improvements in my country just to spite these retards.

servo_sausage 10mo ago
Sure, I use and contribute to some; and participate in international groups. The key part for me though is the voluntary nature. I can participate as much or as little as I like, and my motivation to participate can be entirely individualistic, and the whole thing still works (more or less). Taxation and policing is not voluntary however; and I frequently see the proceeds going to short term initiatives, that are promoted based on how much they impact some minority group specifically. Advancing one group in a democracy is not often even a neutral action; its entirely possible to use resources so poorly that it's harmful overall. (Both in economic terms, but also in more abstract things like public trust in policing, or tolerance of corruption)
- donkeybeer 10mo ago
  And for me the slicing in dicing happens for non-racial axes, I don't like certain racial minorities getting some subsidies but I don't "feel it in my bones" so to speak whereas I absolutely hate in my very bones the fact that eg conservative voting provinces are getting services from my tax money. Ideally of course I'd prefer not subsidizing any racial groups. Again, the concept of a country or nation defined without race or ethnicity is much closer to what I believe in anyways, except I want it at an even large scale.
- donkeybeer 10mo ago
  Eg I dislike mistreatment of a person of my race or any other race but its not due to racial kinship but distaste for mistreatment in general. I would say I am very low on race, you could say even deracinated and anti national overall in my worldview.

donkeybeer 10mo ago

Groups identity is fragmented precisely because of nationalism. White nationalism, black nationalism, original country nationalism of immigrants. If there hadn't been nationalism, you remove one of the major reasons for that fragmentation in the first place.

servo_sausage 10mo ago
You are trying to define the existence of multiple cultures inside a nation, as a reason why a unified national identity is an issue? You cannot remove the idea of a national identity without some way to prevent a unified group from forming in exclusion to the rest of the population, to advance their group primarily. And the word for that is nationalism.
- donkeybeer 10mo ago
  If you are talking about national identity bereft of and independent from race or ethnicity then you are close to what I want and are maybe using the word nationalism differently from what I meant. Except I go one step above and believe in taking this to a supra national level. You clearly see benefits in dissolving ethnic/racial identification in service of a larger group viz a nation, I just believe in taking it a step further. It has nothing to do with the number of governments one wants or wanting a world government. I don't feel a need to be governed by Germany or France while at the same time I feel no problem in my money and my support going to them and in feeling kinship with them over common principles.
  - servo_sausage 10mo ago
    I think it's important to draw the distinction specifically between multiculturalism (the idea of allowing the nation to be just an economic zone containing multiple cultures), and nationalism (the idea that the citizens of a nation should have a shared culture and identity). And promotion of that shared identity is absolutely vital; it should be independent of race, but not ethnicity, since typically I understand ethnicity to include cultural identity. It's not so much about what we do voluntarily; Its about how we construct an argument that taxation and policing is ethical.