7 ms·

> people who don't read error messages One of my pet peeves that I will never understand. I do not expect users to understand what an error means, but I absol

> people who don't read error messages One of my pet peeves that I will never understand. I do not expect users to understand what an error means, but I absolutely expect them to tell me what the error says. I try to understand things from the perspective of a non-technical user, but I cannot fathom why even a non-technical user would think that they don't need to include the contents of an error message when seeking help regarding the error. Instead, it's "When I do X, I get an error". Maybe I have too much faith in people. I've seen even software engineers become absolutely blind when dealing with errors. I had a time 10 years ago as a tester when I filed a bug ticket with explicit steps that results in a "broken pipe error". The engineer closed the ticket as "Can Not Reproduce" with a comment saying "I can't complete your steps because I'm getting a 'broken pipe error'".

sowbug 10mo ago
If I can victim-blame for a moment, I don't know what my mom is supposed to do when a streaming service on her TV says there's a problem and will she please report a GUID to the support department. No, my mom is not eidetic, and no, she's not going to upload a photo of her living room. Totally agree with you, though, when the full error message is at least capable of being copied to the clipboard.
- cinntaile 10mo ago
  Most (all?) photo apps include a crop function, allowing your mom just crop out everything else.
  - monkey34 10mo ago
    I hope you’re being sarcastic. If not, expecting someone’s parent to know how to use a photo app’s crop functionality just to communicate an error state is a failure of understanding typical streaming app users.
    - cinntaile 10mo ago
      I wasn't being sarcastic. This is not a case of not being capable of doing something, it's about not knowing the functionality exists. Cropping is very simple. I assumed the GP didn't know about it either or he would have taught his mom already. Could the manufacturer solve this in a better way? Probably but that won't solve the issue the customer has now.
      - sowbug 10mo ago
        Poe's Law goes both ways. As a matter of fact, my mom invented digital photo cropping (or "pixel array extent adjustment," because even in her prime she wasn't a marketing genius, bless her heart). We know better than to expect her to submit a bug report once she's settled down to watch TV for the evening. Jokes aside, "upload a photo of her living room" was meant to highlight the ridiculousness of the UX. I believe the designer of that flow had an OKR to decrease the number of reported bugs.
traceroute66 10mo ago
> I do not expect users to understand what an error means I'm not sure I agree. Reason ? The old adage "handle errors gracefully". The "gracefully" part, by definition means taking into account the UX. Ergo "gracefully" does not mean spitting out either (a) a meaningless generic message or (b) A bunch of incomprehensible tech-speak. Your error should provide (a) a user-friendly plain-English description and (b) an error ID that you can then cross-reference (e.g. you know "error 42" means the database connection is foobar because the password is wrong) During your support interaction you can then guide the user through uploading logs or whatever. Preferably through an "upload to support" button you've already carefully coded into your app. Even if your app is targetting a techie audience, its the same ethos. If there is a possibility a techie could solve the problem themselves (e.g. by RTFM or checking the config file), then the onus is on you to provide a suitably meaningful error message to help them on their troubleshooting journey.
- Sohcahtoa82 10mo ago
  There are people that when using a computer, if anything goes remotely wrong, they completely lose all notions of language comprehension. You can make messages as non-technical as possible and provide troubleshooting steps, and they just throw their hands up and say "I'm not a computer person! I don't know what it's telling me!" 20 years ago, I worked the self-checkout registers in retail. I'd have people scan an item (With the obvious audible "BEEP"), and then stand there confused about what to do next. The machine is telling them "Please place the item in the bag" and they'd tell me they don't know what to do. I'd say "What's the machine telling you?" "'Please place the item in the bag'" "Okay, then place the item in the bag" "Oh, okay" It's like they don't understand words if a computer is saying them. But if they're coming from a human, they understand just fine, even if it's the exact same words. "Incorrect password. You may have made a mistake entering it. Please try entering it again." "I don't know what that means, I'm going to call up tech support and just say I'm getting an error when I try to log in."
  - pixl97 10mo ago
    >completely lose all notions of language comprehension I see this pretty often. These aren't even what should be called typical users in theory. They are people doing a technical job and were hired with technical requirements, an application will spit out a well written error message in the domain they should be professionals in and their brain turns off. And ya, it ends up in a call to me where I state the same thing and they figure the problem out. I really don't get it.
vladvasiliu 10mo ago
Just today I've had a "technical" dude complain about something "not working". He even checked "thing A" and "thing B" which "looked fine", but it still "didn't work". A and B had absolutely nothing to do with each either (they solve completely different problems). I had to ask multiple times what exactly he was trying to do and what exactly he was experiencing. I've even had "web devs" shout there must be some kind of "network problem" between their workstation and some web server, because they were getting an http 403 error. So, yeah. Regular users? I honestly have 0 expectations from them. They just observe that the software doesn't do what they expect and they'll complain.
- snupples 10mo ago
  Totally on board with this gripe. Absolutely infuriating. But just one minor devil's advocate on the HTTP 403, although this doesn't excuse it at all. In Azure "private networking", many components still have a public IP and public dns record associated with the hostname of the given service, which clients may try to connect to if they aren't set up right. That IP will respond with a 403 error if they try to connect to it. So Azure is indirectly training people that 403 potentially IS a "network issue"... (like their laptop is not connected to VPN, or Private DNS isn't set up right, or traffic isn't being routed correctly or some such). Yeah, I get that's just plain silly, but it's IAAS/SAAS magic cloud abstraction and that's just the way Microsoft does things.
  - locknitpicker 10mo ago
    > That IP will respond with a 403 error if they try to connect to it. So Azure is indirectly training people that 403 potentially IS a "network issue"... You are not describing a network issue. You're sending requests that by design the origin servers refuse to authorize. This is basic HTTP. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#page-59 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#page-59 The origin servers could also return 404 in this usecase, but 403 is more informative and easier to troubleshoot, because it means "yeah your request to this resource could be good but it's failing some precondition".
    - 10mo ago
mamcx 10mo ago
My theory is that the best, absolute best predictor if someone could be a good programmer (or is) is the ability to read exactly what is written. Is not math, logic or any of that asides. Is the actual ability to read, exactly, without adding or removing anything.
- latexr 10mo ago
  You can test that theory with Magic the Gathering players. Reading exactly what the card says and interpreting it with the exact text of the rules is core to the game.
icepush 10mo ago
Joel Spolsky solved this over 25 years ago https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-people-who-have-better-things-to-do-with-their-lives/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-peop...
- yencabulator 10mo ago
  That solves nothing, just describes the problem.
  - icepush 10mo ago
    Well I know where you stand regarding P = NP
latexr 10mo ago
> Instead, it's "When I do X, I get an error". Worse still, just “it doesn’t work” without even any steps. I sometimes gave those users an analogy like going to the doctor or a mechanic and not providing enough information, but I don’t think it worked.
- kstrauser 10mo ago
  My wife’s a doctor. Trust me, this isn’t unique to technical pursuits. Patient: My foot hurts. Wife: Which part of it? Patient: It all hurts. Wife: Does your heel hurt? Patient: No. Wife: Does your arch hurt? Patient: No. Wife: Do your toes hurt? Patient: This one does. Wife: Does anything but that one toe hurt? Patient: No. Wife: puts on a brave smile
greggyb 10mo ago
I've had the experience of getting to sit beside several categories of people across my career and watch them attempt to do something which is causing issues or errors. The pattern I have seen the most is what I can only describe as speedrunning the error. People will try to do the thing they (think they) know how to do. When information or error comes available on the screen, they completely ignore it; if it is a popup, it is closed as quickly as possible and if it is shown somewhere on the screen that doesn't interrupt their flow, then it is completely ignored. I have given instructions to repeat, but more slowly, and people will still click through errors without a chance to read. I have asked people to go step by step and pause after every step so we can look at what's going on, and they will treat "do thing and close resulting error" as a single step, pausing only after having closed the error. The only explanation I have that I can understand is that closing errors and popups is a reflex for many people, such that they don't even register doing it. I don't know if this is true or if people would agree with it. I've seen this with programmers at all levels of seniority. I've seen it with technically capable non-programmers. I've seen it with non-technical people just trying to use some piece of software. The only thing that's ever been effective for me is to coach people to copy all text and take screenshots of literally everything that is happening on their screen (too many narrow screenshots that obscure useful context, so I ask for whole-screen screenshots only). Some people do well with this. Some never seem to put any effort into the communication.

sowbug 10mo ago

If I can victim-blame for a moment, I don't know what my mom is supposed to do when a streaming service on her TV says there's a problem and will she please report a GUID to the support department. No, my mom is not eidetic, and no, she's not going to upload a photo of her living room. Totally agree with you, though, when the full error message is at least capable of being copied to the clipboard.

cinntaile 10mo ago
Most (all?) photo apps include a crop function, allowing your mom just crop out everything else.
- monkey34 10mo ago
  I hope you’re being sarcastic. If not, expecting someone’s parent to know how to use a photo app’s crop functionality just to communicate an error state is a failure of understanding typical streaming app users.
  - cinntaile 10mo ago
    I wasn't being sarcastic. This is not a case of not being capable of doing something, it's about not knowing the functionality exists. Cropping is very simple. I assumed the GP didn't know about it either or he would have taught his mom already. Could the manufacturer solve this in a better way? Probably but that won't solve the issue the customer has now.
    - sowbug 10mo ago
      Poe's Law goes both ways. As a matter of fact, my mom invented digital photo cropping (or "pixel array extent adjustment," because even in her prime she wasn't a marketing genius, bless her heart). We know better than to expect her to submit a bug report once she's settled down to watch TV for the evening. Jokes aside, "upload a photo of her living room" was meant to highlight the ridiculousness of the UX. I believe the designer of that flow had an OKR to decrease the number of reported bugs.

traceroute66 10mo ago

> I do not expect users to understand what an error means I'm not sure I agree. Reason ? The old adage "handle errors gracefully". The "gracefully" part, by definition means taking into account the UX. Ergo "gracefully" does not mean spitting out either (a) a meaningless generic message or (b) A bunch of incomprehensible tech-speak. Your error should provide (a) a user-friendly plain-English description and (b) an error ID that you can then cross-reference (e.g. you know "error 42" means the database connection is foobar because the password is wrong) During your support interaction you can then guide the user through uploading logs or whatever. Preferably through an "upload to support" button you've already carefully coded into your app. Even if your app is targetting a techie audience, its the same ethos. If there is a possibility a techie could solve the problem themselves (e.g. by RTFM or checking the config file), then the onus is on you to provide a suitably meaningful error message to help them on their troubleshooting journey.

Sohcahtoa82 10mo ago
There are people that when using a computer, if anything goes remotely wrong, they completely lose all notions of language comprehension. You can make messages as non-technical as possible and provide troubleshooting steps, and they just throw their hands up and say "I'm not a computer person! I don't know what it's telling me!" 20 years ago, I worked the self-checkout registers in retail. I'd have people scan an item (With the obvious audible "BEEP"), and then stand there confused about what to do next. The machine is telling them "Please place the item in the bag" and they'd tell me they don't know what to do. I'd say "What's the machine telling you?" "'Please place the item in the bag'" "Okay, then place the item in the bag" "Oh, okay" It's like they don't understand words if a computer is saying them. But if they're coming from a human, they understand just fine, even if it's the exact same words. "Incorrect password. You may have made a mistake entering it. Please try entering it again." "I don't know what that means, I'm going to call up tech support and just say I'm getting an error when I try to log in."
- pixl97 10mo ago
  >completely lose all notions of language comprehension I see this pretty often. These aren't even what should be called typical users in theory. They are people doing a technical job and were hired with technical requirements, an application will spit out a well written error message in the domain they should be professionals in and their brain turns off. And ya, it ends up in a call to me where I state the same thing and they figure the problem out. I really don't get it.

vladvasiliu 10mo ago

Just today I've had a "technical" dude complain about something "not working". He even checked "thing A" and "thing B" which "looked fine", but it still "didn't work". A and B had absolutely nothing to do with each either (they solve completely different problems). I had to ask multiple times what exactly he was trying to do and what exactly he was experiencing. I've even had "web devs" shout there must be some kind of "network problem" between their workstation and some web server, because they were getting an http 403 error. So, yeah. Regular users? I honestly have 0 expectations from them. They just observe that the software doesn't do what they expect and they'll complain.

snupples 10mo ago
Totally on board with this gripe. Absolutely infuriating. But just one minor devil's advocate on the HTTP 403, although this doesn't excuse it at all. In Azure "private networking", many components still have a public IP and public dns record associated with the hostname of the given service, which clients may try to connect to if they aren't set up right. That IP will respond with a 403 error if they try to connect to it. So Azure is indirectly training people that 403 potentially IS a "network issue"... (like their laptop is not connected to VPN, or Private DNS isn't set up right, or traffic isn't being routed correctly or some such). Yeah, I get that's just plain silly, but it's IAAS/SAAS magic cloud abstraction and that's just the way Microsoft does things.
- locknitpicker 10mo ago
  > That IP will respond with a 403 error if they try to connect to it. So Azure is indirectly training people that 403 potentially IS a "network issue"... You are not describing a network issue. You're sending requests that by design the origin servers refuse to authorize. This is basic HTTP. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#page-59 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#page-59 The origin servers could also return 404 in this usecase, but 403 is more informative and easier to troubleshoot, because it means "yeah your request to this resource could be good but it's failing some precondition".
  - 10mo ago

mamcx 10mo ago

My theory is that the best, absolute best predictor if someone could be a good programmer (or is) is the ability to read exactly what is written. Is not math, logic or any of that asides. Is the actual ability to read, exactly, without adding or removing anything.

latexr 10mo ago
You can test that theory with Magic the Gathering players. Reading exactly what the card says and interpreting it with the exact text of the rules is core to the game.

icepush 10mo ago

Joel Spolsky solved this over 25 years ago https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-people-who-have-better-things-to-do-with-their-lives/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-peop...

yencabulator 10mo ago
That solves nothing, just describes the problem.
- icepush 10mo ago
  Well I know where you stand regarding P = NP

latexr 10mo ago

> Instead, it's "When I do X, I get an error". Worse still, just “it doesn’t work” without even any steps. I sometimes gave those users an analogy like going to the doctor or a mechanic and not providing enough information, but I don’t think it worked.

kstrauser 10mo ago
My wife’s a doctor. Trust me, this isn’t unique to technical pursuits. Patient: My foot hurts. Wife: Which part of it? Patient: It all hurts. Wife: Does your heel hurt? Patient: No. Wife: Does your arch hurt? Patient: No. Wife: Do your toes hurt? Patient: This one does. Wife: Does anything but that one toe hurt? Patient: No. Wife: puts on a brave smile

greggyb 10mo ago

I've had the experience of getting to sit beside several categories of people across my career and watch them attempt to do something which is causing issues or errors. The pattern I have seen the most is what I can only describe as speedrunning the error. People will try to do the thing they (think they) know how to do. When information or error comes available on the screen, they completely ignore it; if it is a popup, it is closed as quickly as possible and if it is shown somewhere on the screen that doesn't interrupt their flow, then it is completely ignored. I have given instructions to repeat, but more slowly, and people will still click through errors without a chance to read. I have asked people to go step by step and pause after every step so we can look at what's going on, and they will treat "do thing and close resulting error" as a single step, pausing only after having closed the error. The only explanation I have that I can understand is that closing errors and popups is a reflex for many people, such that they don't even register doing it. I don't know if this is true or if people would agree with it. I've seen this with programmers at all levels of seniority. I've seen it with technically capable non-programmers. I've seen it with non-technical people just trying to use some piece of software. The only thing that's ever been effective for me is to coach people to copy all text and take screenshots of literally everything that is happening on their screen (too many narrow screenshots that obscure useful context, so I ask for whole-screen screenshots only). Some people do well with this. Some never seem to put any effort into the communication.