4 ms·

At a certain level it can lead otherwise competitive companies to rest on their laurels. On another level, it would be game over without them. For example, US

At a certain level it can lead otherwise competitive companies to rest on their laurels. On another level, it would be game over without them. For example, US shipyards would simply stop existing without protection. There is no management strategy or measure they could implement that could compete with Asian shipyards.

mkleczek 10mo ago
The theory is that in both cases (ie. with and without tariffs) shipyards are going to die sooner or later. It is better for the society to let them die as soon as possible and direct efforts to things we are better at while taking advantage of cheaper ships produced elsewhere.
- randyrand 10mo ago
  just don't outsource your means of defense!
  - mkleczek 10mo ago
    With current military technology it is not really possible, is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdppYYfQJgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdppYYfQJgg describes it really well. So the question is more about what part of means of defense you outsource. And what parts of means of defense are outsourced by your enemies. You don't want to base your defense on inferior shipbuilding capabilities, do you?
- etempleton 10mo ago
  Some industries are of national security or other strategic value, so protecting them even if that means some stagnation is desirable over the offshoring of said industry.
  - mkleczek 10mo ago
    The question is: how do you define "national security" and "other strategic value"? At the end of the day both really mean economic interest. Especially in case of US. So if someone says "national security" is above economic interest of US, I would say these people mean _their_ economic interest is above economic interest of US and use both terms as a cover.
    - SR2Z 10mo ago
      Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors.
      - mkleczek 10mo ago
        > Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol > There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors. Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered? I'd say that is fear mongering done by the people doing business on "national security".
        sfifs 10mo ago
        > Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered? Yes that is a clear risk. For most of human history, powerful leaders have unleashed violence on their neighbors to increase their wealth and prestige. For about 70 years, the cold war balance prevented very catastrophic wars between powerful nations but we now seem to be having an atavistic throw back of powerful nations being led by expansionist leaders. You either need to create your own manufacturing capacity or be at the mercy of others.
        SR2Z 10mo ago
        You can call it fearmongering but I can point to the whole of human history and tell you that not only has it happened, at a certain point it is inevitable. I can point at Ukraine, right now, as an example of what happens when one country appears much weaker than an aggressive neighbor. The United States is the greatest power the world has ever seen. While the oceans protect us, the truth is that even the White House was once burned down in a war.
softwaredoug 10mo ago
Sure I can see the argument for national security. And to balance out Chinese companies own rent seeking. OTOH still strategically it’s not great. As the Asian companies have an actual market, this will lead Asian manufacturers to have better ships than comparable US ones.

mkleczek 10mo ago

The theory is that in both cases (ie. with and without tariffs) shipyards are going to die sooner or later. It is better for the society to let them die as soon as possible and direct efforts to things we are better at while taking advantage of cheaper ships produced elsewhere.

randyrand 10mo ago
just don't outsource your means of defense!
- mkleczek 10mo ago
  With current military technology it is not really possible, is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdppYYfQJgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdppYYfQJgg describes it really well. So the question is more about what part of means of defense you outsource. And what parts of means of defense are outsourced by your enemies. You don't want to base your defense on inferior shipbuilding capabilities, do you?
etempleton 10mo ago
Some industries are of national security or other strategic value, so protecting them even if that means some stagnation is desirable over the offshoring of said industry.
- mkleczek 10mo ago
  The question is: how do you define "national security" and "other strategic value"? At the end of the day both really mean economic interest. Especially in case of US. So if someone says "national security" is above economic interest of US, I would say these people mean _their_ economic interest is above economic interest of US and use both terms as a cover.
  - SR2Z 10mo ago
    Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors.
    - mkleczek 10mo ago
      > Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol > There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors. Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered? I'd say that is fear mongering done by the people doing business on "national security".
      - sfifs 10mo ago
        > Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered? Yes that is a clear risk. For most of human history, powerful leaders have unleashed violence on their neighbors to increase their wealth and prestige. For about 70 years, the cold war balance prevented very catastrophic wars between powerful nations but we now seem to be having an atavistic throw back of powerful nations being led by expansionist leaders. You either need to create your own manufacturing capacity or be at the mercy of others.
      - SR2Z 10mo ago
        You can call it fearmongering but I can point to the whole of human history and tell you that not only has it happened, at a certain point it is inevitable. I can point at Ukraine, right now, as an example of what happens when one country appears much weaker than an aggressive neighbor. The United States is the greatest power the world has ever seen. While the oceans protect us, the truth is that even the White House was once burned down in a war.

softwaredoug 10mo ago

Sure I can see the argument for national security. And to balance out Chinese companies own rent seeking. OTOH still strategically it’s not great. As the Asian companies have an actual market, this will lead Asian manufacturers to have better ships than comparable US ones.