5 ms·

Repair a ship’s hull still in the river in -50˚C (2022)

237 points by aziaziazi 10mo ago

throwawayffffas 10mo ago
The -50 makes it actually easier, because it's you know on top of the river instead on in the river at this point.
- boomlinde 10mo ago
  That's the crux of it; they aren't.
ZeroConcerns 10mo ago
Interesting choice of tourism destination, but quite cool (no pun intended...) regardless. One of the most annoying things about working with anything metal at those temperatures, is that your tools will pretty much instantly become stuck to whatever it is you're trying to manipulate, making a propane burner an indispensable addition to your toolbox.
- netsharc 10mo ago
  Ewan McGregor and his friend Charley Boorman was also in the area, 20 odd years ago, when they did a montorbike trip from London to New York, "The Long Way Round" (Crossing Europe, Mongolia, Russia, Canada and USA): https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA Man, looking at the map it feels like one of the last wild place on earth. I was wondering if this shipyard is on the Arctic Coast, but not really. If it were, it'll be relevant in the near near future. At the moment it's connected by a river to the Arctic Ocean, it's probably booming with business.
  - lostlogin 10mo ago
    > The Long Way Round It was a neat series, but the start where they whinge about not getting free bikes from their brand of choice was so incredibly entitled and such a turn off.
    - cpursley 10mo ago
      I don’t think it was entitlement, but enthusiasm about brands (hobbyists tend to get that way).
      - lostlogin 10mo ago
        You’re probably right. It seems far more likely to be left in of they were trying to show brand enthusiasm.
      - chihuahua 10mo ago
        But given that McGregor has millions in the bank, he could have bought 3 KTMs and not even noticed the cost. Instead, they insisted that they will only ride bikes that someone gives them for free. Because the poor millionaire Hollywood actor "I was in a Star Wars movie!" couldn't possibly pay for his pet project out of his own pocket. Oh how unfair, those evil oppressors at KTM!
      - hadlock 10mo ago
        He was coming off the high of being the "star" of the new Star Wars movies. He was a main character in the story but not The main character. I recall watching these on physical DVD via netflix in ~2008 and wondering why he seemed (what we now casually call) entitled; I'd been watching the series for ~3-4 episodes before it clicked with me that he was one of the actors from star wars, despite being a long time star wars fan. He was definitely entitled, the blow up was centered around KTM not being interested in what a Star Wars actor was doing and not taking him seriously. I distinctly recall seeing him cry, or almost cry on camera. That said, ignoring that drama, the rest of the series was quite good, when they published "The long way Down" from Scotland to South Africa I jumped on that and watched it as well. Someone else pointed out they did an EV thing from Argentina to... Alaska? with Rivian, I might go look at that too.
      - barney54 10mo ago
        And it really want's Ewan that was put out about the KTM rejection--he wanted to ride the BMWs, but Charley Boorman was pissed. Charley had dreamed of the KTMs for years.
- metalman 10mo ago
  no propane burners. propane freezes solid at minus 60°, and you need heaters to get any flow long before it gets that cold, to the point that you can set propane out in a bucket, which I have some experience with in useing it, to supper cool transmission shafts, so that they shrink, and press fit bearings slip right on. so yes they have propane, but they use it in other, less well known ways.
  - mapt 10mo ago
    Maybe butane?
    - LeifCarrotson 10mo ago
      Butane stops vaporizing at -1C (31F), isobutane at about -10C (10F). Propane's boiling point is even better, at about -40C/-40F, but it self-cools and doesn't develop the required pressures to run a torch. I know this because my otherwise dependable camp stove is a 3-season affair. For winter camping, you basically need a white gas system (liquid fueled, manually pressurized or gravity fed). I suppose I'd reach for an acetylene torch in a cold workshop.
      - mapt 10mo ago
        You're right. I misinterpreted my little butane torch's apparent high pressure in relation to my big propane torch. Canned ethane or ethyne ("acetylene") then.
  - testing22321 10mo ago
    Propane freezes long before -60C. The recent cold snap in the Yukon had smaller tanks useless just past -35c, and bigger ones not doing much past -40c. We don’t take it on winter adventures for that reason.
    - hughdbrown 10mo ago
      I am not understanding this. Propane does not freeze anywhere near -60C. Wikipedia [1] says it freezes (liquid to solid) below -187C and boils (liquid to gas) above -42C. Propane is probably unusable as a fuel below -42C because there is no vapor leaving the tank [not within my experience]. That is different from the propane being a solid. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane Melting point −187.7 °C Boiling point −42.25 to −42.04 °C
- febusravenga 10mo ago
  Interesting observation and I have to relate - today I've measured ice thickness with classic stainless caliper - -3 celsius was enough for it to immediately glue to ice it was even barely wet. Working such temperatures must be real hazard to skin, anything metal will glue to it immediately.
  - amluto 10mo ago
    Let the metal cool down to the the temperature of the ice and try again. The problem isn’t generally that the ice is sticky per se; the problem is that the surface of the ice will melt if something warm enough touches it and then will freeze again and stick.
aosaigh 10mo ago
There is a good YT channel I subscribe to from a person in Yakutsk who makes interesting videos on life there: https://www.youtube.com/@KiunB https://www.youtube.com/@KiunB
giacomoforte 10mo ago
I saw a youtube video of a single mother who job it was to cut out the ice from underneath the ships to create space to do the repairs. Apparently its a very dangerous job because you can easily end up frozen to the river if you're not careful. Must be the same one mentioned in the article. youtube.com/watch?v=Lu9P3VaMCho
- mapt 10mo ago
  I'm reminded of the worker in this bit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3g-h1rxQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3g-h1rxQw Absolutely loves her job. Screams a little bit every time she swings the pickaxe below a certain depth though. As one does.
londons_explore 10mo ago
So all these ships are immobilized till summer when the ice melts? But winter is the time for repairs etc?
- tessierashpool9 10mo ago
  makes sense, doesn't it?
aziaziazi 10mo ago
Unrelated: is there a delay on HN between submission and publication? I posted that article a few days ago and the header is now "3 hours ago".
- huhkerrf 10mo ago
  Some postings get a second chance if they're considered interesting but didn't get much traction the first time around. More info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308
  - aziaziazi 10mo ago
    Thanks! Digging into your link I found the explanation: > There's one glitch that occasionally confuses people. When the software lobs a story, it displays a rolled-back timestamp—not the original submission time, but a resubmission time relative to other items on the front page. If you see a timestamp inconsistency on HN, this is probably why. Edit: if this is the kind of detail that interests you, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 for a more recent explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380
    - rendaw 10mo ago
      I think it also messes up the timestamps on top level replies? It's super confusing, and sometimes you see a reply that's outdated since there's been new new or discussion since, etc.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- mothballed 10mo ago
  HNs system can be hard to figure out. I posted an ~identical article to one that hit #1 on top page a few hours before the other guy. My own posting only got like 8 votes. I have no idea what I did wrong. I think there is some randomness in the beginning; if a couple people notice it in the first 15 or 20 minutes then it stays high enough other people notice it and then it snowballs. If you have a good post though that gets overlooked someone will commonly "steal" it and use a slightly different article and good chance that one will get traction. Surprised no one thought to do that before you got a second chance.
zhrvoj 10mo ago
Coming back from warm and cozy Oman Al Hajar mountains and Wahiba crossing, this makes my cry. So beautiful and interesting planet we live on !!
yuppiepuppie 10mo ago
Thanks for the story! The pictures of this technique triggers my submechanophobia - especially the photo of the two people working underneath the ship.
foobarian 10mo ago
Huh, that actually seems pretty convenient. It's like a subtractive scaffold
- bombcar 10mo ago
  I once was extremely proud of myself when I had to change a tire without a jack; realizing that I could move the car so the tire was over dirt/sand, brace the car, and dig out underneath the tire.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
nubskr 10mo ago
Skip the dry dock, just chainsaw the river until it freezes deep enough, peak yakutsk engineering
- stivatron 10mo ago
  hahaha.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
bombcar 10mo ago
I don't see the wheels on the boat with wheels - is it the "paddle wheel in the next shot?
throwaway5752 10mo ago
It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch, even if they overlap with an area of technical interest. Kapersky is part of a corrupt regime that has killed tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainian civilians and murdered leaders of rival political parties. You can get numb to it, but it is a horrible, historic war crime. He is complicit and his boat pictures can go to hell.
- lo_zamoyski 10mo ago
  > It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch This is totally incoherent and nonsensical. There is no moral case for this and you are making a purely emotional remark.
  - samothrace 10mo ago
    I don't think either of you have made your point very well. "It's not okay to ... appreciate ... pictures..." Isn't nonsensical, but it doesn't really convey the meaning that I'm assuming was intended (so I guess it's incoherent to some degree). That assumed meaning being that it's not okay to support people that support evil regimes. Even if that support is minimal and indirect. Would you buy an art book by a Nazi officer in 1942? After all, the officer would only receive a very small portion of the proceeds of the book, in reality providing an infinitesimal benefit to the Nazi party itself. Would you recommend said book to people you know? After all, you wouldn't be providing even that tiny amount of material support. And after all, it's simply the creative work of another human, unrelated to the war or atrocities, not representing the interests of the Nazi party itself. I'm sure that there are plenty of people that will show up to argue that actually, yes, they would gladly buy the book if they liked it and they would recommend it. And some will have the logical devices to show that there are no moral obligations involved. I disagree. Generally speaking, each of us only have tiny levers to pull, and we should pull them.
  - proprietario 10mo ago
    I feel like this an interesting angle and I want to approach the discussion in good faith.. So why should it be morally ok to show support/better the public image/engage with a party that is supporting/purporting some huge morally bad things? My reasoning is as follows, I wonder where you wouldn't agree: A: You shouldn't support people doing morally bad stuff B: Someone supporting morally bad things is morally bad B.2: Sharing/Engaging with them shows support and betters their public image C: Kaspersky is an oligarch supporting stuff that is morally wrong D: So you shouldn't support him by driving engagement to his site
rkagerer 10mo ago
How bad is it for a ship's hull to get frozen in ice? Are these ships all reinforced? Are there clever mitigations this "drydock" undertakes?
- bruce343434 10mo ago
  As the ice expands, I think the ship gets lifted upwards slightly. Water freezing and expanding in pipes and enclosed spaces is the real problem. There's several ways to cool a ship engine, I suspect these all use a system where the "radiator" is a hull feature where anti-freeze engine coolant goes through exposed veins in a closed loop to exchange heat with the cold water under.
  - rkagerer 9mo ago
    How about bilge pump discharges? Are those ok because they're open on one end? What about cavities in the pump? (eg. bellows)
tintor 10mo ago
This looks like real life MineCraft.
burnt-resistor 10mo ago
Skills that aren't present in sufficient quantities for the US military to be able to invade or hold Greenland. (They have a "Space" base 1000 mi from Nuuk but it consists of 150 personnel, a 10000' runway, and facilities for missile detection.) Furthermore, the ~55k Danes and Greenlanders have 15k-20k large caliber rifles that hit out to 800-900 meters out of necessity. People there sell suppressed .30-06 and larger rifles with enormous optics on FB Marketplace for $600-800 equivalent. US invading Greenland would face 1000+ Simo Häyhäs and the dissolution of NATO.

237 points by aziaziazi 10mo ago

throwawayffffas 10mo ago

The -50 makes it actually easier, because it's you know on top of the river instead on in the river at this point.

boomlinde 10mo ago
That's the crux of it; they aren't.

ZeroConcerns 10mo ago

Interesting choice of tourism destination, but quite cool (no pun intended...) regardless. One of the most annoying things about working with anything metal at those temperatures, is that your tools will pretty much instantly become stuck to whatever it is you're trying to manipulate, making a propane burner an indispensable addition to your toolbox.

netsharc 10mo ago
Ewan McGregor and his friend Charley Boorman was also in the area, 20 odd years ago, when they did a montorbike trip from London to New York, "The Long Way Round" (Crossing Europe, Mongolia, Russia, Canada and USA): https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA Man, looking at the map it feels like one of the last wild place on earth. I was wondering if this shipyard is on the Arctic Coast, but not really. If it were, it'll be relevant in the near near future. At the moment it's connected by a river to the Arctic Ocean, it's probably booming with business.
- lostlogin 10mo ago
  > The Long Way Round It was a neat series, but the start where they whinge about not getting free bikes from their brand of choice was so incredibly entitled and such a turn off.
  - cpursley 10mo ago
    I don’t think it was entitlement, but enthusiasm about brands (hobbyists tend to get that way).
    - lostlogin 10mo ago
      You’re probably right. It seems far more likely to be left in of they were trying to show brand enthusiasm.
    - chihuahua 10mo ago
      But given that McGregor has millions in the bank, he could have bought 3 KTMs and not even noticed the cost. Instead, they insisted that they will only ride bikes that someone gives them for free. Because the poor millionaire Hollywood actor "I was in a Star Wars movie!" couldn't possibly pay for his pet project out of his own pocket. Oh how unfair, those evil oppressors at KTM!
    - hadlock 10mo ago
      He was coming off the high of being the "star" of the new Star Wars movies. He was a main character in the story but not The main character. I recall watching these on physical DVD via netflix in ~2008 and wondering why he seemed (what we now casually call) entitled; I'd been watching the series for ~3-4 episodes before it clicked with me that he was one of the actors from star wars, despite being a long time star wars fan. He was definitely entitled, the blow up was centered around KTM not being interested in what a Star Wars actor was doing and not taking him seriously. I distinctly recall seeing him cry, or almost cry on camera. That said, ignoring that drama, the rest of the series was quite good, when they published "The long way Down" from Scotland to South Africa I jumped on that and watched it as well. Someone else pointed out they did an EV thing from Argentina to... Alaska? with Rivian, I might go look at that too.
    - barney54 10mo ago
      And it really want's Ewan that was put out about the KTM rejection--he wanted to ride the BMWs, but Charley Boorman was pissed. Charley had dreamed of the KTMs for years.
metalman 10mo ago
no propane burners. propane freezes solid at minus 60°, and you need heaters to get any flow long before it gets that cold, to the point that you can set propane out in a bucket, which I have some experience with in useing it, to supper cool transmission shafts, so that they shrink, and press fit bearings slip right on. so yes they have propane, but they use it in other, less well known ways.
- mapt 10mo ago
  Maybe butane?
  - LeifCarrotson 10mo ago
    Butane stops vaporizing at -1C (31F), isobutane at about -10C (10F). Propane's boiling point is even better, at about -40C/-40F, but it self-cools and doesn't develop the required pressures to run a torch. I know this because my otherwise dependable camp stove is a 3-season affair. For winter camping, you basically need a white gas system (liquid fueled, manually pressurized or gravity fed). I suppose I'd reach for an acetylene torch in a cold workshop.
    - mapt 10mo ago
      You're right. I misinterpreted my little butane torch's apparent high pressure in relation to my big propane torch. Canned ethane or ethyne ("acetylene") then.
- testing22321 10mo ago
  Propane freezes long before -60C. The recent cold snap in the Yukon had smaller tanks useless just past -35c, and bigger ones not doing much past -40c. We don’t take it on winter adventures for that reason.
  - hughdbrown 10mo ago
    I am not understanding this. Propane does not freeze anywhere near -60C. Wikipedia [1] says it freezes (liquid to solid) below -187C and boils (liquid to gas) above -42C. Propane is probably unusable as a fuel below -42C because there is no vapor leaving the tank [not within my experience]. That is different from the propane being a solid. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane Melting point −187.7 °C Boiling point −42.25 to −42.04 °C
febusravenga 10mo ago
Interesting observation and I have to relate - today I've measured ice thickness with classic stainless caliper - -3 celsius was enough for it to immediately glue to ice it was even barely wet. Working such temperatures must be real hazard to skin, anything metal will glue to it immediately.
- amluto 10mo ago
  Let the metal cool down to the the temperature of the ice and try again. The problem isn’t generally that the ice is sticky per se; the problem is that the surface of the ice will melt if something warm enough touches it and then will freeze again and stick.

aosaigh 10mo ago

There is a good YT channel I subscribe to from a person in Yakutsk who makes interesting videos on life there: https://www.youtube.com/@KiunB https://www.youtube.com/@KiunB

giacomoforte 10mo ago

I saw a youtube video of a single mother who job it was to cut out the ice from underneath the ships to create space to do the repairs. Apparently its a very dangerous job because you can easily end up frozen to the river if you're not careful. Must be the same one mentioned in the article. youtube.com/watch?v=Lu9P3VaMCho

mapt 10mo ago
I'm reminded of the worker in this bit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3g-h1rxQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3g-h1rxQw Absolutely loves her job. Screams a little bit every time she swings the pickaxe below a certain depth though. As one does.

londons_explore 10mo ago

So all these ships are immobilized till summer when the ice melts? But winter is the time for repairs etc?

tessierashpool9 10mo ago
makes sense, doesn't it?

aziaziazi 10mo ago

Unrelated: is there a delay on HN between submission and publication? I posted that article a few days ago and the header is now "3 hours ago".

huhkerrf 10mo ago
Some postings get a second chance if they're considered interesting but didn't get much traction the first time around. More info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308
- aziaziazi 10mo ago
  Thanks! Digging into your link I found the explanation: > There's one glitch that occasionally confuses people. When the software lobs a story, it displays a rolled-back timestamp—not the original submission time, but a resubmission time relative to other items on the front page. If you see a timestamp inconsistency on HN, this is probably why. Edit: if this is the kind of detail that interests you, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 for a more recent explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380
  - rendaw 10mo ago
    I think it also messes up the timestamps on top level replies? It's super confusing, and sometimes you see a reply that's outdated since there's been new new or discussion since, etc.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
mothballed 10mo ago
HNs system can be hard to figure out. I posted an ~identical article to one that hit #1 on top page a few hours before the other guy. My own posting only got like 8 votes. I have no idea what I did wrong. I think there is some randomness in the beginning; if a couple people notice it in the first 15 or 20 minutes then it stays high enough other people notice it and then it snowballs. If you have a good post though that gets overlooked someone will commonly "steal" it and use a slightly different article and good chance that one will get traction. Surprised no one thought to do that before you got a second chance.

zhrvoj 10mo ago

Coming back from warm and cozy Oman Al Hajar mountains and Wahiba crossing, this makes my cry. So beautiful and interesting planet we live on !!

yuppiepuppie 10mo ago

Thanks for the story! The pictures of this technique triggers my submechanophobia - especially the photo of the two people working underneath the ship.

foobarian 10mo ago

Huh, that actually seems pretty convenient. It's like a subtractive scaffold

bombcar 10mo ago
I once was extremely proud of myself when I had to change a tire without a jack; realizing that I could move the car so the tire was over dirt/sand, brace the car, and dig out underneath the tire.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

nubskr 10mo ago

Skip the dry dock, just chainsaw the river until it freezes deep enough, peak yakutsk engineering

stivatron 10mo ago
hahaha.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

bombcar 10mo ago

I don't see the wheels on the boat with wheels - is it the "paddle wheel in the next shot?

throwaway5752 10mo ago

It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch, even if they overlap with an area of technical interest. Kapersky is part of a corrupt regime that has killed tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainian civilians and murdered leaders of rival political parties. You can get numb to it, but it is a horrible, historic war crime. He is complicit and his boat pictures can go to hell.

lo_zamoyski 10mo ago
> It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch This is totally incoherent and nonsensical. There is no moral case for this and you are making a purely emotional remark.
- samothrace 10mo ago
  I don't think either of you have made your point very well. "It's not okay to ... appreciate ... pictures..." Isn't nonsensical, but it doesn't really convey the meaning that I'm assuming was intended (so I guess it's incoherent to some degree). That assumed meaning being that it's not okay to support people that support evil regimes. Even if that support is minimal and indirect. Would you buy an art book by a Nazi officer in 1942? After all, the officer would only receive a very small portion of the proceeds of the book, in reality providing an infinitesimal benefit to the Nazi party itself. Would you recommend said book to people you know? After all, you wouldn't be providing even that tiny amount of material support. And after all, it's simply the creative work of another human, unrelated to the war or atrocities, not representing the interests of the Nazi party itself. I'm sure that there are plenty of people that will show up to argue that actually, yes, they would gladly buy the book if they liked it and they would recommend it. And some will have the logical devices to show that there are no moral obligations involved. I disagree. Generally speaking, each of us only have tiny levers to pull, and we should pull them.
- proprietario 10mo ago
  I feel like this an interesting angle and I want to approach the discussion in good faith.. So why should it be morally ok to show support/better the public image/engage with a party that is supporting/purporting some huge morally bad things? My reasoning is as follows, I wonder where you wouldn't agree: A: You shouldn't support people doing morally bad stuff B: Someone supporting morally bad things is morally bad B.2: Sharing/Engaging with them shows support and betters their public image C: Kaspersky is an oligarch supporting stuff that is morally wrong D: So you shouldn't support him by driving engagement to his site

rkagerer 10mo ago

How bad is it for a ship's hull to get frozen in ice? Are these ships all reinforced? Are there clever mitigations this "drydock" undertakes?

bruce343434 10mo ago
As the ice expands, I think the ship gets lifted upwards slightly. Water freezing and expanding in pipes and enclosed spaces is the real problem. There's several ways to cool a ship engine, I suspect these all use a system where the "radiator" is a hull feature where anti-freeze engine coolant goes through exposed veins in a closed loop to exchange heat with the cold water under.
- rkagerer 9mo ago
  How about bilge pump discharges? Are those ok because they're open on one end? What about cavities in the pump? (eg. bellows)

tintor 10mo ago

This looks like real life MineCraft.

burnt-resistor 10mo ago

Skills that aren't present in sufficient quantities for the US military to be able to invade or hold Greenland. (They have a "Space" base 1000 mi from Nuuk but it consists of 150 personnel, a 10000' runway, and facilities for missile detection.) Furthermore, the ~55k Danes and Greenlanders have 15k-20k large caliber rifles that hit out to 800-900 meters out of necessity. People there sell suppressed .30-06 and larger rifles with enormous optics on FB Marketplace for $600-800 equivalent. US invading Greenland would face 1000+ Simo Häyhäs and the dissolution of NATO.