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So the 2014 annexation was OK but the 2022 invasion not?

ithkuil 9mo ago
My personal opinion is that the 2014 annexation wasn't ok but the reason wasn't that Crimea is not Russian but because I value the stability and peace produced by the idea that we shouldn't change borders through force. But that's the reason why using this "who does Crimea _belong to_" framing of the question is misleading. You will find many people who will say Russia and yet not necessarily subscribe to the imperialistic stance that Russia is employing.
- koiueo 9mo ago
  > say Russia and yet not necessarily subscribe to the imperialistic stance Contradiction right there
  - ithkuil 9mo ago
    I don't understand. Of course Crimea was acquired by the Russian empire by force, from other people who had it in turn acquired by force and so on. But none of those were Ukrainians. Kruschcev transferred the crimean oblast as a symbolic gesture. Pointing this fact out does not contradict one's desire to not have Russia acquire more territory and behave in an imperialistic manner today
    - koiueo 9mo ago
      By your logic if a father made love to a mother as a symbolic gesture and didn't intend to have a kid, then it's totally ok to murder the kid 40 years later. Just restoring historical justice, right? I have a good dozen of friends from Crimea despite visiting Crimea just a few times as a little kid – thousands of young people were forced out of their homes. The russian logic is very perverted, yet completely predictable. If you are a national minority (even if your 7% claim was true) surrounded by russians, you should leave, and all your belongings should be redistributed among russians. But if you are a russian minority surrounded by different nations, then everyone around you should learn russian language, respect russian culture, otherwise russian tanks will come. Or maybe they won't, but only for the sake of global stability (otherwise it's justified)
- koonsolo 9mo ago
  I see it differently. They won't say Ukraine because Russians see themselves as superior to Ukrainians. So anything that might imply Ukrainians might have or do something better, is out of the question. It cannot compute in their brain, because Ukrainians are "Little Russians" at best. And that's why there is a problem with the mentality of the Russian population. Literally NONE is able to say Crimea belongs to Ukraine, NONE. And that while internationally, it is part of Ukraine. So no, my question is not misleading. When at least some Russians would say that Crimea actually belongs to Ukraine, I might have some hope. But right now, sorry, no.
  - ithkuil 9mo ago
    Of course many many Russians think that "Ukrainians are "Little Russians" at best." But they are easily revealed for what they are when you ask them litteraly what they think about Ukrainians and you don't have to bring up the crimean question. I posit that the crimean question will also unnecessarily put in the same cohort all those people who do recognize the distinct culture of Ukraine and their right of self determination but also consider the past and present situation of crimea to be more nuanced. EDIT: some Russians may recognize that Ukrainians have right to self determination but they may also recognize that today Crimea is populated by a vast majority of Russians and thus there giving that land back to Ukraine would lead to further bloodshed. And yes I have heard actual Russians having that position (I'm not Russian fwiw)
    - koonsolo 9mo ago
      ALL Russians cheered when they annexed Crimea, and NONE of them want to give it back to Ukraine, because NONE of them believe it belongs to Ukraine, counter to international agreement. You might think this is normal, I don't. And because of that, I don't agree with statements like "it's not the Russian people, only the Russian government". You didn't mention any Russian that sees it differently, and you confirm everything what I say. Except for the fact that you think it's normal and I don't. Edit: What I said above is not correct and I apologize for that. After the annexation of Crimea, there was a protest in Russia with thousands of protesters. Some prominent politicians also openly opposed it.

My personal opinion is that the 2014 annexation wasn't ok but the reason wasn't that Crimea is not Russian but because I value the stability and peace produced by the idea that we shouldn't change borders through force. But that's the reason why using this "who does Crimea _belong to_" framing of the question is misleading. You will find many people who will say Russia and yet not necessarily subscribe to the imperialistic stance that Russia is employing.

koiueo 9mo ago
> say Russia and yet not necessarily subscribe to the imperialistic stance Contradiction right there
- ithkuil 9mo ago
  I don't understand. Of course Crimea was acquired by the Russian empire by force, from other people who had it in turn acquired by force and so on. But none of those were Ukrainians. Kruschcev transferred the crimean oblast as a symbolic gesture. Pointing this fact out does not contradict one's desire to not have Russia acquire more territory and behave in an imperialistic manner today
  - koiueo 9mo ago
    By your logic if a father made love to a mother as a symbolic gesture and didn't intend to have a kid, then it's totally ok to murder the kid 40 years later. Just restoring historical justice, right? I have a good dozen of friends from Crimea despite visiting Crimea just a few times as a little kid – thousands of young people were forced out of their homes. The russian logic is very perverted, yet completely predictable. If you are a national minority (even if your 7% claim was true) surrounded by russians, you should leave, and all your belongings should be redistributed among russians. But if you are a russian minority surrounded by different nations, then everyone around you should learn russian language, respect russian culture, otherwise russian tanks will come. Or maybe they won't, but only for the sake of global stability (otherwise it's justified)
koonsolo 9mo ago
I see it differently. They won't say Ukraine because Russians see themselves as superior to Ukrainians. So anything that might imply Ukrainians might have or do something better, is out of the question. It cannot compute in their brain, because Ukrainians are "Little Russians" at best. And that's why there is a problem with the mentality of the Russian population. Literally NONE is able to say Crimea belongs to Ukraine, NONE. And that while internationally, it is part of Ukraine. So no, my question is not misleading. When at least some Russians would say that Crimea actually belongs to Ukraine, I might have some hope. But right now, sorry, no.
- ithkuil 9mo ago
  Of course many many Russians think that "Ukrainians are "Little Russians" at best." But they are easily revealed for what they are when you ask them litteraly what they think about Ukrainians and you don't have to bring up the crimean question. I posit that the crimean question will also unnecessarily put in the same cohort all those people who do recognize the distinct culture of Ukraine and their right of self determination but also consider the past and present situation of crimea to be more nuanced. EDIT: some Russians may recognize that Ukrainians have right to self determination but they may also recognize that today Crimea is populated by a vast majority of Russians and thus there giving that land back to Ukraine would lead to further bloodshed. And yes I have heard actual Russians having that position (I'm not Russian fwiw)
  - koonsolo 9mo ago
    ALL Russians cheered when they annexed Crimea, and NONE of them want to give it back to Ukraine, because NONE of them believe it belongs to Ukraine, counter to international agreement. You might think this is normal, I don't. And because of that, I don't agree with statements like "it's not the Russian people, only the Russian government". You didn't mention any Russian that sees it differently, and you confirm everything what I say. Except for the fact that you think it's normal and I don't. Edit: What I said above is not correct and I apologize for that. After the annexation of Crimea, there was a protest in Russia with thousands of protesters. Some prominent politicians also openly opposed it.