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> In general though, it feels stupid that we have to play by these rules, when the enemy makes a mockery of them That is what separates civilized from uncivili

> In general though, it feels stupid that we have to play by these rules, when the enemy makes a mockery of them That is what separates civilized from uncivilized people, and it is a curse we have to bear unless we want to join the uncivilized.

sekai 10mo ago
> That is what separates civilized from uncivilized people, and it is a curse we have to bear unless we want to join the uncivilized. If the Allies had committed to this thinking, they would have lost the war. And make no mistake, Europe is at war with Russia, just not a kinetic one.
- sigmoid10 10mo ago
  There is a 1000+ km long front of active combat in Europe right now. A front where European shells and Russian ones are getting exchanged. Where F-16s fight Su-35s. And then we have things like the Russian cargo ship with nuclear materials that got sunk by a high-end torpedo. Just because shells aren't yet raining down on Berlin, it doesn't mean this war isn't kinetic.
  - lazide 10mo ago
    Ukraine isn’t part of the EU, or historically part of the ‘European’ sphere (really meaning Western European). It’s historically been part of Russia. Or if you go back far enough, Russia was part of Ukraine. It doesn’t completely negate your point, and anyone who isn’t seeing the writing on the wall is being willfully ignorant aka Chamberlain. But culturally this is also a very different situation from France, Germany, England, Spain, or even Greece being shelled. Which is also why people are so ‘meh’ on it, practically, and it’s taking so long to respond.
    - sigmoid10 10mo ago
      >It doesn’t completely negate your point I don't see anything in your comment that would even argue with my point, much less negate it. That history lesson on Europe itself is pretty pointless, because if you go back a bit further you'd find much of Ukraine having been ruled by the Habsburgs - i.e. Austria. It doesn't get more European than that. And that short period of time where the Russians/Soviets ruled basically serves as Putin's propaganda reason for this war. That certainly doesn't belong here either.
      - lazide 10mo ago
        Ukraine literally used to rule the land now known as Russia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27]. Kyiv used to be the capital. I think you have your history confused, and your 'what is propaganda or not' reversed. They are basically two brothers with a long history, with Russia having recently been on top - after previously being on the bottom - but then going bankrupt - and now trying to bully it's way back to being on top again. Either way, they aren't France, Germany, England, Spain, etc. and have wildly different history. Ukraine isn't part of the EU or NATO (and in fact, the possibility they might eventually be is a big driver of what Russia is now doing). Got to get that bullying in before it's too late, after all.
        sigmoid10 10mo ago
        I already told you why that is not just wrong, it misses the point. It also doesn't help if you want to switch this whole historical legitimation propaganda to the other side, because it is meaningless anyway. We are not living in 19th or 15th or 10th century Europe anymore. Ukraine lies in Europe by any remotely recent definition and it has an actual kinetic front line. End of story. Everything else is malevolent political propaganda.
        lazide 10mo ago
        Except it is neither in Europe by most any pre-war political compass, nor ‘malevolent political propaganda’. It was getting ready to join Europe, however, which is why it now has a kinetic front line. And why Europe is treating this as a proxy war threat, and not an attack on an actual member.
- gnerd00 10mo ago
  fortunately people making shrill comments from the armchair are in charge of nothing
  - ifwinterco 10mo ago
    The issue is, the people who are (supposedly) in charge are also sounding increasingly hysterical and seem to be actively pushing for a NATO-Russia confrontation. That is obviously insane, so I do wonder if there isn't something else going on beneath the surface
    - Sabinus 10mo ago
      Is it insane when Russian media and political class threatens nuclear strikes on European capitals for years now?
      - LtWorf 10mo ago
        While we clearly told russia that if they invade the baltics we wouldn't nuke them?
    - Throaway198712 10mo ago
      Um. Theres a peace deal in the making right now. not sure you are too well informed.
      - ifwinterco 10mo ago
        I hope so, but we have the head of NATO and numerous senior British officials (including the head of MI6, who is never normally heard from) talking about an impending major war. Maybe (hopefully) this is just hedging and something can be worked out
        Throaway198712 10mo ago
        Mi6 didnt say that there was an impending major war. They said theres a growing threat from Russia. When agencies like that put those statements out, its not just to warn the public. Its to put pressure on the other side. There will be a peace deal in Ukraine soon.
- carlosjobim 10mo ago
  > Europe is at war with Russia, just not a kinetic one. Then why aren't you at the front? Or in a factory making artillery shells?
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
rasz 10mo ago
We are standing at the precipice where the only choices quickly narrow down to becoming "uncivilized" or dead.

sekai 10mo ago

> That is what separates civilized from uncivilized people, and it is a curse we have to bear unless we want to join the uncivilized. If the Allies had committed to this thinking, they would have lost the war. And make no mistake, Europe is at war with Russia, just not a kinetic one.

sigmoid10 10mo ago
There is a 1000+ km long front of active combat in Europe right now. A front where European shells and Russian ones are getting exchanged. Where F-16s fight Su-35s. And then we have things like the Russian cargo ship with nuclear materials that got sunk by a high-end torpedo. Just because shells aren't yet raining down on Berlin, it doesn't mean this war isn't kinetic.
- lazide 10mo ago
  Ukraine isn’t part of the EU, or historically part of the ‘European’ sphere (really meaning Western European). It’s historically been part of Russia. Or if you go back far enough, Russia was part of Ukraine. It doesn’t completely negate your point, and anyone who isn’t seeing the writing on the wall is being willfully ignorant aka Chamberlain. But culturally this is also a very different situation from France, Germany, England, Spain, or even Greece being shelled. Which is also why people are so ‘meh’ on it, practically, and it’s taking so long to respond.
  - sigmoid10 10mo ago
    >It doesn’t completely negate your point I don't see anything in your comment that would even argue with my point, much less negate it. That history lesson on Europe itself is pretty pointless, because if you go back a bit further you'd find much of Ukraine having been ruled by the Habsburgs - i.e. Austria. It doesn't get more European than that. And that short period of time where the Russians/Soviets ruled basically serves as Putin's propaganda reason for this war. That certainly doesn't belong here either.
    - lazide 10mo ago
      Ukraine literally used to rule the land now known as Russia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27]. Kyiv used to be the capital. I think you have your history confused, and your 'what is propaganda or not' reversed. They are basically two brothers with a long history, with Russia having recently been on top - after previously being on the bottom - but then going bankrupt - and now trying to bully it's way back to being on top again. Either way, they aren't France, Germany, England, Spain, etc. and have wildly different history. Ukraine isn't part of the EU or NATO (and in fact, the possibility they might eventually be is a big driver of what Russia is now doing). Got to get that bullying in before it's too late, after all.
      - sigmoid10 10mo ago
        I already told you why that is not just wrong, it misses the point. It also doesn't help if you want to switch this whole historical legitimation propaganda to the other side, because it is meaningless anyway. We are not living in 19th or 15th or 10th century Europe anymore. Ukraine lies in Europe by any remotely recent definition and it has an actual kinetic front line. End of story. Everything else is malevolent political propaganda.
        lazide 10mo ago
        Except it is neither in Europe by most any pre-war political compass, nor ‘malevolent political propaganda’. It was getting ready to join Europe, however, which is why it now has a kinetic front line. And why Europe is treating this as a proxy war threat, and not an attack on an actual member.
gnerd00 10mo ago
fortunately people making shrill comments from the armchair are in charge of nothing
- ifwinterco 10mo ago
  The issue is, the people who are (supposedly) in charge are also sounding increasingly hysterical and seem to be actively pushing for a NATO-Russia confrontation. That is obviously insane, so I do wonder if there isn't something else going on beneath the surface
  - Sabinus 10mo ago
    Is it insane when Russian media and political class threatens nuclear strikes on European capitals for years now?
    - LtWorf 10mo ago
      While we clearly told russia that if they invade the baltics we wouldn't nuke them?
  - Throaway198712 10mo ago
    Um. Theres a peace deal in the making right now. not sure you are too well informed.
    - ifwinterco 10mo ago
      I hope so, but we have the head of NATO and numerous senior British officials (including the head of MI6, who is never normally heard from) talking about an impending major war. Maybe (hopefully) this is just hedging and something can be worked out
      - Throaway198712 10mo ago
        Mi6 didnt say that there was an impending major war. They said theres a growing threat from Russia. When agencies like that put those statements out, its not just to warn the public. Its to put pressure on the other side. There will be a peace deal in Ukraine soon.
carlosjobim 10mo ago
> Europe is at war with Russia, just not a kinetic one. Then why aren't you at the front? Or in a factory making artillery shells?
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]

rasz 10mo ago

We are standing at the precipice where the only choices quickly narrow down to becoming "uncivilized" or dead.