4 ms·

> Let's, for the sake of argument, say that the west was orchestrating regime change in Ukraine with the end goal of regime change in Russia, knowing it would l

by benterix 10mo ago

> Let's, for the sake of argument, say that the west was orchestrating regime change in Ukraine with the end goal of regime change in Russia, knowing it would lead to war. OK, let's play this game. The logical fallacy here is the relationship between regime change in Ukraine and Russia. These are two distinct countries. It's like saying someone wanted to influence the outcome of the election in the USA to cause regime change in Canada. (I use this example because we know Russians were influencing the elections in the USA.) A simply more unsettling conclusion from this narrative is that if there is a causal link indeed, and Ukraine taking a pro-EU direction can cause a regime change in Russia, it means that the basis of the latter is very weak - so weak it has to start the war to prevent its fall.

TFYS 10mo ago
> The logical fallacy here is the relationship between regime change in Ukraine and Russia. These are two distinct countries. It's like saying someone wanted to influence the outcome of the election in the USA to cause regime change in Canada. Would the US not be forced to react in some way if a pro-china party took over in Canada with the help of chinese influence? And China had the goal of integrating Canada into its military alliance?
- jacquesm 9mo ago
  The US is already doing that without a pro-china party in Canada, what makes you think it would make any difference. That's your second strawman in this thread now by the way I think the legal limit is three so you're allowed one more.
  - brabel 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - anonymars 9mo ago
      > people on HN I think it's just "people" (independent of website, nationality...)
    - jacquesm 9mo ago
      Except of course that they are not saying 'basic logical things only' but are making up dumb examples. The rest of your comment does not deserve an answer.
      - anonymars 9mo ago
        This in no way excuses anything currently going on, but I think you are missing the forest for the trees and flying off the handle without engaging with a valid point of discussion because it wasn't a perfect example. One can condemn the invasion while also considering what would happen if a US neighbor cozied up with its geopolitical rivals. How about the Soviet Union/Cuba? How did the US react to that?
        jacquesm 9mo ago
        We all know how they reacted, so there is no need for hypotheticals that serve no purpose. And in the last 9 months the US has made multiple strong suggestions that they think that Canada should 'join' the US (by hook, crook, or force) and they've threatened to annex Greenland (similarly) and are currently in the process of setting up a military offensive against Venezuela. We don't need fairytales, we have history and present day events to guide us.
        anonymars 9mo ago
        Okay, but then what point are you attempting to make? You are arguing against the comparison, but then go on to describe other aggressive acts instead. As though to seethe, "it's not an apple, it's a fruit!"
        jacquesm 9mo ago
        > Would the US not be forced to react in some way if a pro-china party took over in Canada with the help of chinese influence? This sets you up for saying 'no' > And China had the goal of integrating Canada into its military alliance? And this denies Canada the right to engage into treaties. Neither of which has any bearing on the topic and on actual reality, there is no 'pro china' party in Canada and even if there was the US would not be 'forced to react'. It probably would react but it would not be forced to do so. So this all just muddies the water by 'just asking questions'. We should stick to reality rather than engaging in positioning strawmen for the express purpose of taking them down, we have an actual war going on right now with a belligerent that is committing warc rimes by the hundreds on a daily basis and which was started on the pretext of another sovereign nation being a threat when that clearly wasn't the case. That is the topic (see title). Besides that, the hypothetical does not stand even in principle because the US has been the aggressor in very recent history. So I'm not just arguing against the comparison, I'm questioning the value of making such comparisons in principle because they are just attempts at sowing discord without any basis in fact. If you see it differently then you're welcome that.
- benterix 9mo ago
  Rest assured that if Trump started to kill Canadians he would be as hated by the world as Putin is.

TFYS 10mo ago

> The logical fallacy here is the relationship between regime change in Ukraine and Russia. These are two distinct countries. It's like saying someone wanted to influence the outcome of the election in the USA to cause regime change in Canada. Would the US not be forced to react in some way if a pro-china party took over in Canada with the help of chinese influence? And China had the goal of integrating Canada into its military alliance?

jacquesm 9mo ago
The US is already doing that without a pro-china party in Canada, what makes you think it would make any difference. That's your second strawman in this thread now by the way I think the legal limit is three so you're allowed one more.
- brabel 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - anonymars 9mo ago
    > people on HN I think it's just "people" (independent of website, nationality...)
  - jacquesm 9mo ago
    Except of course that they are not saying 'basic logical things only' but are making up dumb examples. The rest of your comment does not deserve an answer.
    - anonymars 9mo ago
      This in no way excuses anything currently going on, but I think you are missing the forest for the trees and flying off the handle without engaging with a valid point of discussion because it wasn't a perfect example. One can condemn the invasion while also considering what would happen if a US neighbor cozied up with its geopolitical rivals. How about the Soviet Union/Cuba? How did the US react to that?
      - jacquesm 9mo ago
        We all know how they reacted, so there is no need for hypotheticals that serve no purpose. And in the last 9 months the US has made multiple strong suggestions that they think that Canada should 'join' the US (by hook, crook, or force) and they've threatened to annex Greenland (similarly) and are currently in the process of setting up a military offensive against Venezuela. We don't need fairytales, we have history and present day events to guide us.
        anonymars 9mo ago
        Okay, but then what point are you attempting to make? You are arguing against the comparison, but then go on to describe other aggressive acts instead. As though to seethe, "it's not an apple, it's a fruit!"
        jacquesm 9mo ago
        > Would the US not be forced to react in some way if a pro-china party took over in Canada with the help of chinese influence? This sets you up for saying 'no' > And China had the goal of integrating Canada into its military alliance? And this denies Canada the right to engage into treaties. Neither of which has any bearing on the topic and on actual reality, there is no 'pro china' party in Canada and even if there was the US would not be 'forced to react'. It probably would react but it would not be forced to do so. So this all just muddies the water by 'just asking questions'. We should stick to reality rather than engaging in positioning strawmen for the express purpose of taking them down, we have an actual war going on right now with a belligerent that is committing warc rimes by the hundreds on a daily basis and which was started on the pretext of another sovereign nation being a threat when that clearly wasn't the case. That is the topic (see title). Besides that, the hypothetical does not stand even in principle because the US has been the aggressor in very recent history. So I'm not just arguing against the comparison, I'm questioning the value of making such comparisons in principle because they are just attempts at sowing discord without any basis in fact. If you see it differently then you're welcome that.
benterix 9mo ago
Rest assured that if Trump started to kill Canadians he would be as hated by the world as Putin is.