8 ms·

The insights on American and Chinese industry / tech are undercut by the generic stereotypical “Europeans are smug and backward-looking” comments. A bit disapp

The insights on American and Chinese industry / tech are undercut by the generic stereotypical “Europeans are smug and backward-looking” comments. A bit disappointing that someone who spends a ton of time analyzing two complex societies (China and the US) falls into Reddit-tier caricature on a third.

snake_doc 10mo ago
Would you be able provide some evidence to the contrary when it comes to the topics discussed in the letter? On industrial infrastructure On technology innovation On internet regulation On central planning Otherwise, your comment becomes an anecdote supporting the common stereotypes (assuming you’re from Europe).
- keiferski 10mo ago
  I’m responding to comments like this in the article: So I am betting that the US and China are more compelling forces for change. Stalin was fond of telling a story from his experience in Leipzig in 1907, when, to his astonishment, 200 German workers failed to turn up to a socialist meeting because no ticket controller was on the platform to punch their train tickets, citing this experience as proof of the hopelessness of Germanic obedience. Could anyone imagine Chinese or Americans being so obedient? This isn’t a serious analysis of German culture. It’s perfectly fine to argue that certain countries are economically or industrially problematic, but when you throw in comments like this, it really doesn’t help your argument. And I’m not from Europe, but I have lived here for years. The constant clueless comments by my fellow North Americans about the somehow monolithic entity of “Europe” are irritating.
  - snake_doc 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - UncleMeat 10mo ago
      This is sealioning.
      - stephen_cagle 10mo ago
        I had never heard of this term and I thought about it for a good 30 seconds before looking it up (my best guess was it had something to do with the sea lion's "owrk" "owrk" noise when it asks for a fish at water parks). :] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
  - enraged_camel 10mo ago
    >> This isn’t a serious analysis of German culture. Who said it’s meant to be a serious analysis? This is an essay that shares anecdotes and personal opinions, not a PhD dissertation.
    - vouwfietsman 10mo ago
      This is not really fair, the story is never explicitly discounted as hyperbole in the article and follows a range of other more mellow criticisms of europe. Also, directly following this quote, is the question: "Could anyone imagine Chinese or Americans being so obedient?". None of this points to the story being out of place, and since the author specializes in serious analysis of china's relation with america, and the author brings up europe, its fair to assume that they included this story as a relevant criticism of europe. In that regard, its indeed not of the same quality as the analyses of china or american culture.
- throwaway132448 10mo ago
  I mean, you only have to quote the letter itself: "I have a hard time squaring the poor prospects of Europe over the next decade with the smugness that Europeans have for themselves. I spent most of the summer in Copenhagen. There’s no doubt that quality of life in most European cities is superb, especially for what I care about: food, opera, walkable streets, access to nature. But a decade of low economic growth is biting. European prices and taxes can be so high while salaries can be so low." This particular kind of American perspective on Europe always falls into the same trap: Not understanding a world where economic performance is _not_ the be-all-and-end-all, not understanding the connection between the benefits of such a world (things that consider externalities - not individuals - in order to exist) with the costs of such a world (taxes).
  - snake_doc 10mo ago
    What exactly is wrong with Americans or for the most part the rest of the world valuing economic performance as a measure of prosperity and progress? Your comment is again another anecdote confirming European stereotypes. It’s not a “trap”, it’s a different world view.
    - dtj1123 10mo ago
      The issue is not that it's used as a measure, it's that the thing economic performance is supposed to serve as a proxy for - the general health and stability of a society - is then completely ignored. Homelessness, mental illness and violence are objectively more pronounced in American culture than they are in European culture.
    - vouwfietsman 10mo ago
      Again this is a polarizing question. There's nothing wrong with either perspective, rather its the case that the European perspective is different. That's not to say that Europeans are right, or that criticism flowing from Europe to America is justified, but it should at least be acknowledged that pitching two players in a competition that one of the players has less interest in competing on, is misguided.
    - 10mo ago
OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
[flagged]
- keiferski 10mo ago
  I was using Reddit-tier as an indicator of low quality, not specific viewpoints.
- anhner 10mo ago
  "Europeans are seething about it" lol bro cope harder. We're not the ones living under fascists or communists.
  - OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - anhner 10mo ago
      What the fuck are you talking about bro? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o At least get your facts straight. And by the way, last I checked the war started in 2022, that's (almost) 4 years away, not "5 and running". Go and cope harder.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
mns 10mo ago
The attitude here is quite astounding, seeing how any criticism of the author or this piece is seen as some sort of reductionism of his views and european smugness (?!?), all the while the author reduces an entire nation (Germany in this case) to the anecdote of a Georgian mass murderer, probably one of the most ruthless and diabolical people that ever existed, so yeah, very balanced discussion here.
- vouwfietsman 10mo ago
  Indeed, it seems that the gap that is present politically between America and Europe is to some extent also playing out in the individual, even in the tech scene. This is a little alarming to me, as the idea of an alliance can break down on the political level and be repaired in the new cycle of elections, that's OK. But if an individual American really thinks Europeans are as smug as described in this article, or if Europeans really think the way this article describes, there is a more concerning, deeper issue with the worldview of these historically well-aligned peoples.
- throw87764e 10mo ago
  I find these comments funny, because a lot of HNers will reduce the behavior of Asians (everything is about “face”), and yet become so acutely aware when it happens to Europeans.
vanviegen 10mo ago
I agree. What are comments like this > I feel it’s impossible to convince Europeans to act in their self interest. You can’t even convince them to adopt air conditioning in the summer. doing in an article that seems to strive for serious reflection on different societies?
- exceptione 10mo ago
  It is a bit of a trope under self-important bloggers, he seems to have copied and as such it reveals one's depth of understanding. On the one hand: who cares, we all have stereotypes when the resolution is too low. And criticism is due, but not this one. I think it is a bit of a trade-off, his writings are engaging, but to discuss Europe in a serious way a blog wouldn't cut it, and it would make it possibly quite dry nonetheless. One has to not only understand the EU, their limited budget and mandate, but also the various parties in each country. This is just incredibly difficult to form an accurate picture of, even if there wouldn't be things like centuries old cultures and various languages. To take away from the doom and gloom, iff the EU is really able to integrate in the next decade(s), form a shared market, my money would be on them. Both the current US government and Russia fear an integrated Europe, as they would be too big as a prey. Meanwhile, many countries want to join the EU, despite it being a "hell hole", at least if one believes the adversarial content promoted on the big tech platforms. At this moment the current US government supports "nationalistic" parties and corrupt kleptocrats like Orban, trying to break it apart from inside.
- ccorcos 10mo ago
  Perhaps he could have been a bit more charitable with his attitude, but do you disagree with his premise? 20k people died from heat exposure last summer in Europe! That seems crazy to me, though what do I know? What am I missing?
  - vanviegen 10mo ago
    I'm finding numbers ranging from 16k (Imperial College London) up to 175k (WHO). All studies I encountered seem to be based on a statistical correlation between heath and death counts, which makes sense as 'heath' is rarely registered as an official cause of death. Would installing more airco's help? Perhaps, especially some of the poorer regions in the south, hardest hit by climate change, may still have some nursery homes without proper cooling. But installing airco's isn't even listed in the 4 points of advice provided by the WHO. It's about adapting lifestyles and work practices (think: construction workers) to the changing climate. The US is not exempt from this. The NY times is reporting a doubling of heath related deaths in recent years, though I can only find numbers based on official causes of death, which cannot be compared to the European numbers. So no, I don't think this is a great example of all of Europe being too stupid to do even simple things in its own interests.
odiroot 10mo ago
There's also a big differences between the Western Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe on the forward/backward looking plane. I presume his eyes are mostly fixed on the "old EU".
zurfer 10mo ago
Yes it's a bit disappointing but probably captures the current American and Chinese opinion quite well. Europe as a whole has a lot of good things going for it but I do agree that it's less ambitious on average than these 2 power blocks. However the same dynamic that was described in the article where nobody wants to lack behind is also true for Europe. Also, yes Novo Nordisk plundered their GTM in the US and lost market valuation but you can still get the same medical outcome in Europe as a patient based on a European invention. Another one: The first Covid vaccine came out of Germany. More interestingly is the question on degrowth. I personally believe that growth is the more tempting path in general, but we do live on a finite planet and no system is on a path or has a good framework on how to grow sustainably or responsibly. Maybe AI is going to figure it out for us, but maybe it involves some hard tradeoffs that intelligence alone can't solve.

snake_doc 10mo ago

Would you be able provide some evidence to the contrary when it comes to the topics discussed in the letter? On industrial infrastructure On technology innovation On internet regulation On central planning Otherwise, your comment becomes an anecdote supporting the common stereotypes (assuming you’re from Europe).

keiferski 10mo ago
I’m responding to comments like this in the article: So I am betting that the US and China are more compelling forces for change. Stalin was fond of telling a story from his experience in Leipzig in 1907, when, to his astonishment, 200 German workers failed to turn up to a socialist meeting because no ticket controller was on the platform to punch their train tickets, citing this experience as proof of the hopelessness of Germanic obedience. Could anyone imagine Chinese or Americans being so obedient? This isn’t a serious analysis of German culture. It’s perfectly fine to argue that certain countries are economically or industrially problematic, but when you throw in comments like this, it really doesn’t help your argument. And I’m not from Europe, but I have lived here for years. The constant clueless comments by my fellow North Americans about the somehow monolithic entity of “Europe” are irritating.
- snake_doc 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - UncleMeat 10mo ago
    This is sealioning.
    - stephen_cagle 10mo ago
      I had never heard of this term and I thought about it for a good 30 seconds before looking it up (my best guess was it had something to do with the sea lion's "owrk" "owrk" noise when it asks for a fish at water parks). :] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
- enraged_camel 10mo ago
  >> This isn’t a serious analysis of German culture. Who said it’s meant to be a serious analysis? This is an essay that shares anecdotes and personal opinions, not a PhD dissertation.
  - vouwfietsman 10mo ago
    This is not really fair, the story is never explicitly discounted as hyperbole in the article and follows a range of other more mellow criticisms of europe. Also, directly following this quote, is the question: "Could anyone imagine Chinese or Americans being so obedient?". None of this points to the story being out of place, and since the author specializes in serious analysis of china's relation with america, and the author brings up europe, its fair to assume that they included this story as a relevant criticism of europe. In that regard, its indeed not of the same quality as the analyses of china or american culture.
throwaway132448 10mo ago
I mean, you only have to quote the letter itself: "I have a hard time squaring the poor prospects of Europe over the next decade with the smugness that Europeans have for themselves. I spent most of the summer in Copenhagen. There’s no doubt that quality of life in most European cities is superb, especially for what I care about: food, opera, walkable streets, access to nature. But a decade of low economic growth is biting. European prices and taxes can be so high while salaries can be so low." This particular kind of American perspective on Europe always falls into the same trap: Not understanding a world where economic performance is _not_ the be-all-and-end-all, not understanding the connection between the benefits of such a world (things that consider externalities - not individuals - in order to exist) with the costs of such a world (taxes).
- snake_doc 10mo ago
  What exactly is wrong with Americans or for the most part the rest of the world valuing economic performance as a measure of prosperity and progress? Your comment is again another anecdote confirming European stereotypes. It’s not a “trap”, it’s a different world view.
  - dtj1123 10mo ago
    The issue is not that it's used as a measure, it's that the thing economic performance is supposed to serve as a proxy for - the general health and stability of a society - is then completely ignored. Homelessness, mental illness and violence are objectively more pronounced in American culture than they are in European culture.
  - vouwfietsman 10mo ago
    Again this is a polarizing question. There's nothing wrong with either perspective, rather its the case that the European perspective is different. That's not to say that Europeans are right, or that criticism flowing from Europe to America is justified, but it should at least be acknowledged that pitching two players in a competition that one of the players has less interest in competing on, is misguided.
  - 10mo ago

OGEnthusiast 10mo ago

[flagged]

keiferski 10mo ago
I was using Reddit-tier as an indicator of low quality, not specific viewpoints.
anhner 10mo ago
"Europeans are seething about it" lol bro cope harder. We're not the ones living under fascists or communists.
- OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - anhner 10mo ago
    What the fuck are you talking about bro? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o At least get your facts straight. And by the way, last I checked the war started in 2022, that's (almost) 4 years away, not "5 and running". Go and cope harder.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

mns 10mo ago

The attitude here is quite astounding, seeing how any criticism of the author or this piece is seen as some sort of reductionism of his views and european smugness (?!?), all the while the author reduces an entire nation (Germany in this case) to the anecdote of a Georgian mass murderer, probably one of the most ruthless and diabolical people that ever existed, so yeah, very balanced discussion here.

vouwfietsman 10mo ago
Indeed, it seems that the gap that is present politically between America and Europe is to some extent also playing out in the individual, even in the tech scene. This is a little alarming to me, as the idea of an alliance can break down on the political level and be repaired in the new cycle of elections, that's OK. But if an individual American really thinks Europeans are as smug as described in this article, or if Europeans really think the way this article describes, there is a more concerning, deeper issue with the worldview of these historically well-aligned peoples.
throw87764e 10mo ago
I find these comments funny, because a lot of HNers will reduce the behavior of Asians (everything is about “face”), and yet become so acutely aware when it happens to Europeans.

vanviegen 10mo ago

I agree. What are comments like this > I feel it’s impossible to convince Europeans to act in their self interest. You can’t even convince them to adopt air conditioning in the summer. doing in an article that seems to strive for serious reflection on different societies?

exceptione 10mo ago
It is a bit of a trope under self-important bloggers, he seems to have copied and as such it reveals one's depth of understanding. On the one hand: who cares, we all have stereotypes when the resolution is too low. And criticism is due, but not this one. I think it is a bit of a trade-off, his writings are engaging, but to discuss Europe in a serious way a blog wouldn't cut it, and it would make it possibly quite dry nonetheless. One has to not only understand the EU, their limited budget and mandate, but also the various parties in each country. This is just incredibly difficult to form an accurate picture of, even if there wouldn't be things like centuries old cultures and various languages. To take away from the doom and gloom, iff the EU is really able to integrate in the next decade(s), form a shared market, my money would be on them. Both the current US government and Russia fear an integrated Europe, as they would be too big as a prey. Meanwhile, many countries want to join the EU, despite it being a "hell hole", at least if one believes the adversarial content promoted on the big tech platforms. At this moment the current US government supports "nationalistic" parties and corrupt kleptocrats like Orban, trying to break it apart from inside.
ccorcos 10mo ago
Perhaps he could have been a bit more charitable with his attitude, but do you disagree with his premise? 20k people died from heat exposure last summer in Europe! That seems crazy to me, though what do I know? What am I missing?
- vanviegen 10mo ago
  I'm finding numbers ranging from 16k (Imperial College London) up to 175k (WHO). All studies I encountered seem to be based on a statistical correlation between heath and death counts, which makes sense as 'heath' is rarely registered as an official cause of death. Would installing more airco's help? Perhaps, especially some of the poorer regions in the south, hardest hit by climate change, may still have some nursery homes without proper cooling. But installing airco's isn't even listed in the 4 points of advice provided by the WHO. It's about adapting lifestyles and work practices (think: construction workers) to the changing climate. The US is not exempt from this. The NY times is reporting a doubling of heath related deaths in recent years, though I can only find numbers based on official causes of death, which cannot be compared to the European numbers. So no, I don't think this is a great example of all of Europe being too stupid to do even simple things in its own interests.

odiroot 10mo ago

There's also a big differences between the Western Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe on the forward/backward looking plane. I presume his eyes are mostly fixed on the "old EU".

zurfer 10mo ago

Yes it's a bit disappointing but probably captures the current American and Chinese opinion quite well. Europe as a whole has a lot of good things going for it but I do agree that it's less ambitious on average than these 2 power blocks. However the same dynamic that was described in the article where nobody wants to lack behind is also true for Europe. Also, yes Novo Nordisk plundered their GTM in the US and lost market valuation but you can still get the same medical outcome in Europe as a patient based on a European invention. Another one: The first Covid vaccine came out of Germany. More interestingly is the question on degrowth. I personally believe that growth is the more tempting path in general, but we do live on a finite planet and no system is on a path or has a good framework on how to grow sustainably or responsibly. Maybe AI is going to figure it out for us, but maybe it involves some hard tradeoffs that intelligence alone can't solve.