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Something that scares the shit out of me is the new American tourist visa requirement that you disclose your social media accounts over the last 5 years. This s

by noduerme 10mo ago

Something that scares the shit out of me is the new American tourist visa requirement that you disclose your social media accounts over the last 5 years. This seems an ultimate example of the exclusion or people who refuse to participate in a technology. I'm not on social media. If more countries begin adopting this, what am I supposed to show the immigration authorities? Am I supposed to create a wholly fake set of accounts in order to prove I'm not a threat to them? Is telling them that I'm not on social media a red flag in itself?

OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
That's by design. Many people in America today (including many in the federal administration) want to transition to a world with much less immigration and foreigners (including less foreign tourism) than the levels of the past several decades.
- noduerme 10mo ago
  I understand that, but that's not really my point. Yes, they have an isolationist and xenophobic bent. But while it's understandable that having a social media presence full of sketchy / terrorist / trafficking / whatever might now be a reason for a country to deny a visa, it creates the question of what they do with innocent people who simply refuse to participate. My question is what happens if you don't have any social media or smartphone at all? Will we be completely excluded from being allowed to travel freely unless we post our thoughts on a daily basis?
  - OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
    > Will we be completely excluded from being allowed to travel freely unless we post our thoughts on a daily basis? Yes, because even if you do, they will find other ways to exclude you. Their stated goal is to exclude as many non-Americans from the USA as possible, regardless of whether they consider you "innocent" or not.
    - noduerme 10mo ago
      I mean, that is a US problem - or the problem of any country which chooses to destroy its own tourism sector. And searching social media is ancillary to that, as you say, if the main goal is simply to exclude people. I'm talking about (per the article) whether self-exclusion from social media will soon become a worldwide red flag for travel.
      - OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
        Oh my bad, since you mentioned American tourist visas I assumed you were only talking about America. I have not been following similar laws in other countries, maybe their motivations are different than the American intentions of completely shutting off immigrants from the USA.
        noduerme 10mo ago
        That's very typically American. Being so focused on America without understanding that the choices of the American government have huge consequences for the rest of the world. You keep saying that this is all about the Trump regime keeping foreigners out of America. And that is true. But that is not the big picture. As an American you should be more worried about whether you will be allowed to leave your country, or go anywhere else when or if you want to, once America sets this precedent.
hobofan 10mo ago
I think for the next 20-30 years it still wouldn't be feasible to make it a red flag due to a non-negligable part of the older population not being on social media at all. I assume it is right now still be possible to enter countries with a mobile phone number, and those have existed for longer and are used more widely than social media accounts. I would assume they also try to derive associations to social media accounts via passport information if you don't provide any to them. So I think it's rather an additional bureaucratic step added on their side rather than a red flag.
lanyard-textile 10mo ago
Optimistically, I think this is similar to how it's viewed when dating in the US. They want to see how well behaved you are, what your empathy level is with other people, and what you're thinking about day to day. Not to say I agree with the reasoning, but it comes from a place of fear. The more fear, the more scrutiny. The criteria you need to show is based on what they fear. Merely having a somewhat populated account on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn passes the bar of being a "real person." You share a few regular everyday things, you get happy birthday posts, a handful of people usually like your posts, you get a green flag in almost every circumstance. Not having a social media presence comes with this question that can make it the scary part: Is it because of disinterest, because you're not socially belonging, or because you got ran off the platforms? It's obvious to us that is is disinterest, but they no way of truly knowing. And based on what they fear it can scare them, that unknowing. If you can convince the other person it truly it is simple disinterest, there is no problem. Unless they're really bent on seeing your everyday thoughts... If you don't "integrate well," it scares some people. You're too different and they fear becoming the outcasted outgroup with your inclusion. If you're banned, that's... not good :) Which is a terrible place to be for people who were unrightfully banned. What they're really hoping to catch is the blatantly obvious people that are openly delusional or violent on social media. There is a non-trivial amount of people who do this. If you have a page like this, or worse if you don't disclose it, that is the huge red flag. This is a social investigation we personally do with others at the inner relationship level, with people who are already in the US. Right or not, it's not surprising to me that this reputational criteria bubbled up to immigration.

OGEnthusiast 10mo ago

That's by design. Many people in America today (including many in the federal administration) want to transition to a world with much less immigration and foreigners (including less foreign tourism) than the levels of the past several decades.

noduerme 10mo ago
I understand that, but that's not really my point. Yes, they have an isolationist and xenophobic bent. But while it's understandable that having a social media presence full of sketchy / terrorist / trafficking / whatever might now be a reason for a country to deny a visa, it creates the question of what they do with innocent people who simply refuse to participate. My question is what happens if you don't have any social media or smartphone at all? Will we be completely excluded from being allowed to travel freely unless we post our thoughts on a daily basis?
- OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
  > Will we be completely excluded from being allowed to travel freely unless we post our thoughts on a daily basis? Yes, because even if you do, they will find other ways to exclude you. Their stated goal is to exclude as many non-Americans from the USA as possible, regardless of whether they consider you "innocent" or not.
  - noduerme 10mo ago
    I mean, that is a US problem - or the problem of any country which chooses to destroy its own tourism sector. And searching social media is ancillary to that, as you say, if the main goal is simply to exclude people. I'm talking about (per the article) whether self-exclusion from social media will soon become a worldwide red flag for travel.
    - OGEnthusiast 10mo ago
      Oh my bad, since you mentioned American tourist visas I assumed you were only talking about America. I have not been following similar laws in other countries, maybe their motivations are different than the American intentions of completely shutting off immigrants from the USA.
      - noduerme 10mo ago
        That's very typically American. Being so focused on America without understanding that the choices of the American government have huge consequences for the rest of the world. You keep saying that this is all about the Trump regime keeping foreigners out of America. And that is true. But that is not the big picture. As an American you should be more worried about whether you will be allowed to leave your country, or go anywhere else when or if you want to, once America sets this precedent.

hobofan 10mo ago

I think for the next 20-30 years it still wouldn't be feasible to make it a red flag due to a non-negligable part of the older population not being on social media at all. I assume it is right now still be possible to enter countries with a mobile phone number, and those have existed for longer and are used more widely than social media accounts. I would assume they also try to derive associations to social media accounts via passport information if you don't provide any to them. So I think it's rather an additional bureaucratic step added on their side rather than a red flag.

lanyard-textile 10mo ago

Optimistically, I think this is similar to how it's viewed when dating in the US. They want to see how well behaved you are, what your empathy level is with other people, and what you're thinking about day to day. Not to say I agree with the reasoning, but it comes from a place of fear. The more fear, the more scrutiny. The criteria you need to show is based on what they fear. Merely having a somewhat populated account on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn passes the bar of being a "real person." You share a few regular everyday things, you get happy birthday posts, a handful of people usually like your posts, you get a green flag in almost every circumstance. Not having a social media presence comes with this question that can make it the scary part: Is it because of disinterest, because you're not socially belonging, or because you got ran off the platforms? It's obvious to us that is is disinterest, but they no way of truly knowing. And based on what they fear it can scare them, that unknowing. If you can convince the other person it truly it is simple disinterest, there is no problem. Unless they're really bent on seeing your everyday thoughts... If you don't "integrate well," it scares some people. You're too different and they fear becoming the outcasted outgroup with your inclusion. If you're banned, that's... not good :) Which is a terrible place to be for people who were unrightfully banned. What they're really hoping to catch is the blatantly obvious people that are openly delusional or violent on social media. There is a non-trivial amount of people who do this. If you have a page like this, or worse if you don't disclose it, that is the huge red flag. This is a social investigation we personally do with others at the inner relationship level, with people who are already in the US. Right or not, it's not surprising to me that this reputational criteria bubbled up to immigration.