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That's what I said about nordstream. Turns out it was the Ukrainians! I'm past even guessing at this point...

• jquery 10mo ago
  It was ultimately caused by Russia either way.
  • Argonaut998 10mo ago
    No, a shared resource worth billions and an avenue for trade and repaired relations between the EU and Russia being sabotaged and false flagged by another country has the onus on that country.
    • sekai 10mo ago
      > repaired relations between the EU and Russia being sabotaged and false flagged by another country has the onus on that country. What relations? Nordstream went boom after 2022 war started. And let's not forget that Russia purposely inflated gas prices to put pressure on EU during 2021.
• somenameforme 10mo ago
  I never understand how people bought the propaganda on this. Why would anybody think Russia would blow up a pipeline that they spent years and billions of dollars building? It requires completely rejecting all logic. And then Western countries completely stonewalling calls for an independent international investigation at the UN - why would we do that? I also very much doubt it was the Ukrainians in by themselves - as blowing up heavily reinforced pipes 80m under the water is a rather extreme task, but at least they would have had a reasonable motive. Russia was fueling the German economy, and Ukraine would have had a viable concern about Germany prioritizing their own economy over Ukraine. OTOH it seems somewhat obvious at this point that Russia would not have threatened to turn off the gas, so it was a terrible miscalculation by whoever did it.
  • belorn 10mo ago
    Why would there be a need for independent international investigation when both Sweden and Denmark had active investigations? It was within Swedish and Danish waters so who else has a legal claim to that investigation?
    • aziaziazi 10mo ago
      Countries directly impacted, like most of europe? They don't have a legal claim but when it's so strategic, counties get involved in other's business. Think the US international actions, but for an attach that happen on it's own continent.
      • belorn 10mo ago
        The only country with a claim of being directly impacted is Germany and they also has their own investigation. Sweden and Denmark also share military intelligence with the rest of NATO, which include most of Europe. But you are not answering the question. What need is there for an independent international investigation that has not already been served by the investigations done by Sweden and Denmark?
  • Zanfa 10mo ago
    > I never understand how people bought the propaganda on this. Why would anybody think Russia would blow up a pipeline that they spent years and billions of dollars building? It requires completely rejecting all logic. Wouldn't be the first time Russia to make a bold move that blows up in their face... 3-day special operation and all. There was already no gas flowing through either pipeline at the time and with European gas reserves having been kept at an artificially low level, this could've put a lot of pressure on Germany to certify and permit gas flows through the remaining undamaged NS2 pipeline if it hadn't been a mild winter. This could've been a massive strategic political win for Russia.
  • PoignardAzur 10mo ago
    > I also very much doubt it was the Ukrainians in by themselves - as blowing up heavily reinforced pipes 80m under the water is a rather extreme task, but at least they would have had a reasonable motive. I agree with the first part of your comment, but it baffles me that people keep claiming "Sending some divers from a small yacht plant a bomb underwater" would beyond the capabilities of the Ukrainian special forces.